An intolerant rant.

[rivka]

Three things you can depend on: Death. Taxes. Prejudiced anti-Christian comments in alt-left circles. It's come around on the guitar again in alt.poly, and in the midst of the other things stressing me out I'm finding myself feeling even less tolerant of it than usual.

I know there are people who have been badly hurt by Christians, and by the rigid strictures of particular Christian sects. Some of them are people I love, and so I know this because I've heard about their pain directly. But I also know it because every time I point out a stereotype, every time I take personal offense at being accused of burning witches, every time I lose my temper at correcting the same generalization from the same person for the third time, there's someone there to explain to me that the person who's being offensive has been oppressed by Christians and can't be held accountable for saying prejudiced things.

I don't believe in oppression as a "get out of fairness free" card. I think it's understandable that people who have been hurt may be irrationally prejudiced when faced with people resembling those who harmed them. But I don't consider it a permanent excuse from the fundamental social responsibility to strive to see people as they are.

As far as I'm concerned, people can hold onto distrust and anger and hurt regarding those who are actually responsible for hurting them for as long as they find it personally useful. They can agitate for changes to the system to reduce the power another group has over theirs, and chances are I'll be right by their side supporting them. But I'm less and less willing to cut people slack when they decide that everyone of the wrong religion or sex or skin color or nationality is equally to blame for the wrongs they endured.

I'm sympathetic to the fact that it takes a long time to root out all the damage done by a wound, and that emotional reactions can blindside people in times of stress. But I lose my sympathy quickly if it becomes clear that they aren't even interested in trying to reach a point from which they could be fair.

Comments

[starstraf.livejournal.com]

I find that this is usually from someone that has changed religion and has not made peace with their "religion of origin".

[anisoptera.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in oppression as a "get out of fairness free" card.

Hear, hear.

[saoba.livejournal.com]

*ick* See also *ptui*

You want I should put on my Stompy Boots and go reason with them?

(I have this spell for enlightenment, and one of the ingredients needed to cast it is a size 5 Stompy Boot applied vigorously to someone's butt)

(Just sayin')

[wiredferret.livejournal.com]

I hear you. I think it's odd, all the hatred people spew around them. It seems like it must take so much energy to stay angry at so much of the world.

But then, this all fits into the automatic-counter-cultural-reflex that I'm contemplating writing.

[kiya]

I've been oppressed by morons; does that mean if I pound him into the ground with a big ol' mallet I can count on defense from the peanut gallery and citations of the long list of offenses perpetrated by stupid, obnoxious people?

[mittelbar.livejournal.com]

Sing it, seebling.

[bandhiaduit.livejournal.com]

I think it's understandable that people who have been hurt may be irrationally prejudiced when faced with people resembling those who harmed them. But I don't consider it a permanent excuse from the fundamental social responsibility to strive to see people as they are.

In fact, IMHO, it creates an *additional* responsibility to see beyond the generalizations, and stop and think before spewing speaking. So now, we can generalize that those intolerant people who refuse to take responsibility for their own tolerance, are not only intolerant, but lazy too.

Would you believe that was only 1/2 tongue in cheek?

[redbird]

That's not an intolerant rant. This is an intolerant rant.

That was a model of rational patience, in fact, and more than that current breed of idiots deserve from any of us.

[jinian.livejournal.com]

Yep!

Re:

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I find that this is usually from someone that has changed religion and has not made peace with their "religion of origin".

You're a UU, right? They have a Religious Education curriculum called "Owning Your Religious Past (there's a discussion of it here (http://www.geocities.com/~buuf/sermon/1-16-00.htm), in which people work through the negative elements of their religious upbringing and salvage the positive elements.

Although my minister told me, "the people who need it the most would never take it."

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Sure sounds reasonable to me.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

*nodnodnodstealthhugnodnodnod*

And when called on it, those who spout intolerance-in-the-alleged-name-of-tolerance invariably come back with, "Well, I wasn't talking about *your* kind of Thing-ian ..."

If anything, I'm more offended by bigotry from those who pretend to be Above All That than from those who don't make any pretenses about their prejudices ...

Ironic

[gundo.livejournal.com]

Like a bumper sticker I want to print up says. "Discriminate against Bigotry"...however the irony would probably be lost on most.

[submarine-bells.livejournal.com]

A quick suggestion: killfile!

Seriously - the person in question is not going to change their spots. This has been abundantly demonstrated over quite a while, and he appears to be quite education-resistant. So if you're finding him stressful to deal with, then don't! You aren't going to coax him into changing his mind, no matter how persuasive your arguments are. And there are plenty of other folk around who are willing to call him on his idiocies. So why not killfile him, if he's bugging you?

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

"Hey, he was hurt by Christians!" means you should accept his sincere apology. It doesn't mean he shouldn't apologize.

It might, in some circumstances, be a reason one should overlook mild overstatement, but not hyperbole or outright falsehood.

It really sucks that this kind of thing keeps happening.

[firecat]

I'm not a Christian, and anti-Christian garbage has kept me farther away from a number of communities and individuals than I might be otherwise.

[nsingman.livejournal.com]

That was neither intolerant, nor a rant. Your last paragraph, in particular, demonstrates great understanding of the heart of the problem.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

every time I take personal offense at being accused of burning witches

to the best of my knowledge, you've never even thought about burning me. or pressing me flat with rocks, either! feel free to point this out to people.

[elynne.livejournal.com]

Yaaaaay!! I'm gonna go down to the hardware store and buy myself a crate of mallets right away! ;)

[kiya]

Well.

*settles down to clean the mud off her mallet*

[starstraf.livejournal.com]

amusing - I was trying to remember the name of that course when I replied but was in a rush and dind' have time to look it up, I was going to mention it to you.

I'm one of those freaks of nature. I was raised UU, so it is actually one of the few RE courses I've never taken - though I did lead BYOT a few times.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

A quick suggestion: killfile!

Seriously - the person in question is not going to change their spots. This has been abundantly demonstrated over quite a while, and he appears to be quite education-resistant. So if you're finding him stressful to deal with, then don't! You aren't going to coax him into changing his mind, no matter how persuasive your arguments are. And there are plenty of other folk around who are willing to call him on his idiocies. So why not killfile him, if he's bugging you?

Because it's not limited to one particular person. Tal's an idiot and impervious to reason, yes. But the phenomenon that bothers me is not limited to alt.poly and it's not limited to Tal. There are two or three other people in alt.poly right now making the same anti-Christian assumptions. It's happened there before. It happens in my other newsgroups. It happens in my Unitarian church, it happens in queer communities, it happened when I used to do pro-choice volunteering.

Unless I want to withdraw completely from communities that are important to me, it will not be possible for me to completely isolate myself from this kind of sentiment.

[submarine-bells.livejournal.com]

Ahh yes, well that does make it rather a lot more difficult, doesn't it? I figured you were most likely talking about the inestimable Tal due to the timing of your rant; since it's not just Tal the killfile solution is a bit less useful, as you say.

Oh well, howabout I offer my standard solution for intractable annoyances:
[grufff Hollywood-Marine voice] Nuke 'em from orbit - the only way to be sure! [/gruff Hollywood-Marine voice]

A little bit of thermonuclear diplomacy can be very cathartic sometimes. *laugh*

[otterylexa.livejournal.com]

I recognise a tendency to make anti-christian remarks in myself. But it's something I do my best to avoid or tone down.

I sincerely hope I have not been the cause of uncomfortableness in anyone hearing my mutterings.