Neighborly disturbance.

[rivka]

I thought about making this post last night. If I had, it would've been very different.

Here's what I would have written then:

Something needs to be done about our downstairs neighbors. They've just had a screaming, door-slamming fight at the tops of their lungs - sounds like they're moving back and forth from their apartment to the sidewalk in front of the house. I'd like to say that this is an isolated incident, but the only real difference from the status quo is that this time they're louder. We hear them fighting almost every day - usually early in the morning or late at night. Sometimes loud sex, too, but it's the fighting that bothers me.

About a year ago, I guess, I called the cops on them. It was early on a Saturday morning. I heard angry yelling, and then the unmistakable sound of a body falling heavily against furniture. I dialed 911 and told them I thought I was hearing domestic violence downstairs, and then sat around shaking, waiting for the fallout. An hour or so later, one of the downstairs neighbors came up to apologize. She told me that they had some friends visiting, and had been out all night partying. One of their friends was "drunk and stupid," and while they were trying to get him calmed down he fell over some boxes. She talked about neighborly respect and sounded as though she thought I had made a glorified noise complaint; I explained that I didn't care if they got loud, and only intervened because I thought someone was being hurt. At the time, the whole conversation seemed plausible enough.

But the fighting is getting worse and worse. It's very audible from our house. (We have the three-story main house, and the basement is a separate studio apartment.) I've never had to deal with neighbor noise like this before - parties or loud music, sure, but not vicious shouting, day after day. It's really upsetting me. And I don't want Alex exposed to it, either.

I'm not sure what can be done about it, though. We really don't know them at all - just in a "here, this letter got delivered to the wrong box" sort of way. In the midst of the door slamming last night, I wanted to go out and tell them to shut the hell up, but I was afraid. I've thought about leaving a letter in their mailbox, letting them know how much they're disturbing us. I've thought about complaining to the landlord. Calling the police again doesn't seem likely to do any good. I don't want to keep living like this, but I don't know how to make it stop.

What happened today:

The worst fight yet. I heard them clearly from the second floor, two floors away from them. Michael and Alex were driven in from playing in the backyard - it must have been practically like being right there in the basement apartment with them. All three of us fled the house together, and once we were outside, Michael told me that he'd heard one of them screaming that she didn't intend to let herself be hit anymore.

Shit.

We don't know which one of them it was. They're both women, so we can't go by either the voice or the statistical probabilities. If we did know who it was, our course would be simple: find a way to tell the victim that we know what's happening, and offer our help if she wants to leave or needs a safe place quickly during an argument. Call the cops the next time we hear anything. But we don't know, and making contact with the wrong person could have negative consequences for the victim.

We can still call the police if we hear anything suggestive - or just on general principles, when the fights get loud. But if the cops get there and our neighbors insist that everything's fine, they can't do anything.

I feel like I have the responsibility to do something to make it stop. I just don't know what that thing could be. In the meantime, of course it make hearing them fight much, much more awful. What a nightmare.

Comments

[glinda-w.livejournal.com]

Argh. I don't have any advice, but GoodThoughts for you and your family, and for them.

[suzilem.livejournal.com]

Do you have a good quality tape recorder? Could you start tape recording them so you would have something to play for the police?

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I think you're handling it admirably, but this may be because I'd have no idea what to do in your situation. Clearly for all involved it cannot continue, but what an outsider's role in terms of intervention isn't clear at all.

Good luck to you all dealing with this.

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

I don't know, either. That's awful.

In a different situation, where I was pretty sure that someone in the neighbouring apartment had gotten thrown against the wall where my bed was, along with a lot of shouting and swearing and someone saying zie wished zie was dead, I didn't call the police at the time. But I went the next morning to alert the apartment office (this was a co-op). It turned out that my neighbour the lease-holder in a wheelchair wasn't in fact trapped in the apartment with these crazy people -- she had sublet to them while in the hospital, and my information helped the office to intervene.

So it turned out that ratting them out was good. But telling the office might have made things worse in that whoever was a victim might also become homeless.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

Ugh, that's just *awful*. I can certainly understand that you don't want to live with that, and certainly that you don't want Alex to hear it every day.

Calling the cops the next time this happens sounds like a good plan. But have you discussed this with the landlords? I know you have a good relationship with them. I can't imagine that they'd think it was okay.

-J

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

oh, god. that's awful.

i'd be tempted to call the police whenever you hear them fighting-- not on a noise complaint, but on a "i'm worried they're hurting each other" sort of thing.

*hug*

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Ugh. And you can't just casually leave hotline numbers lying around, because that kind of stuff Just Doesn't Work. (Or, it does, but not often enough to be useful here, which you know perfectly well.)

I do think talking to the landlord about it might be a good plan-- I mean, for /your/ good, not the good of whoever's getting abused, there. But I can't see a good way for you to help both your family and the other person, in this case.

Which, let me just state the obvious, is an awful situation to be in. I'm sorry.

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

Maybe Rivka could call a hotline to see what they recommend doing the next time they hear fighting?

[kcobweb.livejournal.com]

That *is* scary. Particularly because you don't know which is which and who is who. Good luck.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Oh no. What a horrible situation to be in. Talking to the landlord sounds like a good idea.

Is there anyone at the police department who specializes in domestic violence who you could call to ask for advice on what to do?

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

Wow, that sounds horrible.

I agree with both the suggestions of talking to the landlord, and calling the police next time there's a fight.

[ranunculus.livejournal.com]

Have you thought about calling the crisis hotline, or other agency that deals with battered people, for advice? It's the only thing I can think of.

[raincitygirl.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately I've been in a fairly similar situation with the people in the apartment next door to mine, although with it being a heterosexual couple that made it a little easier to know what was going on (quite apart from stereotypes of men as more violent, when one person shouting at the top of their lungs has a high-pitched voice and the other a low-pitched, it's easier to follow what's going on). In no particular order:

1. Talk to the landlord. S/he needs to know what's going on.

2. Continue to call the cops. Even if they don't charge anyone, they have to write up the incident, so there'll be a record of it. Which may be of use if the victim decides to press charges in future, and having a record of previous similar incidents may influence how seriously the cops take it. Bottom line, if it sounds like someone might be getting hurt, err on the side of caution. Obviously this is awkward given that you're the only other tenants in the building (at least in my building there's some plausible deniability with multiple apartments being in a position to hear what's going on and call 911). Again, something you might want to mention to the landlord.

3. Normally I'd say find a way to give a brochure on domestic violence, but since you don't know who's the perpetrator and who's the victim, that's not much good. Is there a local domestic violence shelter and/or hotline? If you call and explain the situation, they may have good suggestions. Given that DV is what they deal with all the time, they've probably run into something like this before.

4. I can't emphasize enough how important I think it is for you to call 911 when you hear what sounds like people getting hurt. A situation can go from mildly dangerous to life-threateningly dangerous very quickly. It probably won't, but better safe than sorry. I've been living next door to Mr Charming for nearly four years now (alas, his grandmother owns his unit and lets him live there rent-free, so there's no chance of evicting him) and have had to call the cops many times. Bottom line, if it's just a shouted argument, I don't bother, but if there are other noises I generally do.

Over that nearly four years, he's had a procession of live-in girlfriends, one of whom committed suicide in the building's underground parking garage after months of escalating fights, some violence from Mr Charming, and many threats (to him) of suicide or murder which at the time I put down to hyperbole. I had tried to get her in touch with a DV shelter, but she didn't show. She had a major drug problem, unfortunately. And the current live-in girlfriend is a Type 1 diabetic whose blood sugar crashes on a fairly regular basis (I'd hazard a guess that all the booze and drugs don't help her manage her condition). I've heard her screaming quite a few times and discovered that Mr Charming is so scared of the cops having an excuse to come into the apartment and search it for drugs that he will drag her out of the apartment and into the lobby BEFORE he calls for an ambulance and/or finds her some juice. So I'm generally the one making the call, because since I have a couple of friends with Type 1 diabetes, I know that the faster they get treatment the better.

I guess what I'm saying is that IF one of your neighbours has a serious health condition, things could get bad quickly. Also, if there is booze and/or drugs involved in their altercations that makes the situation even more volatile, health-wise and escalation of violence-wise. However, I expect taking this advice will result in a fair bit of unpleasantness for you.

[counslr-tragedy.livejournal.com]

You don't know me from Eve, but I wanted to leave a comment about dealing directly with the neighbors.

Whatever your wishes for a peaceful life, I think that your neighbor has chosen otherwise. You're in a no-win situation because apart from the noise disruption, I can see you're acting on your best urges to prevent actual physical harm. But once you invoke the police, emergency services and/or the landlord, your neighbor is going to try to involve you as a way of getting back at you for your interference.

I'm confident you'll know how to manage the confrontation with said neighbor (even though it will Be No Fun At All, sympathies for that), so all I really can do is say that, and remind you, when she tries to blame you for causing trouble, that she (they) were the ones who could not keep the run of themselves, making you worry for their safety and surely causing distress to Alex (as well as yourself). You're worth having a quiet home and unperturbed family life, and surely Alex deserves it: I'd feel free to rub the neighbors' noses in that, if they can't understand what your concerns are.

(Hmmm, that last is sounding more militant than is probably called for, not to mention quite possibly not in tune with your own personality - you don't know me, I only "know" you through the posts here... but I'll let the comment stand because, heck, how does one get to know another without a little data? *wan grin* Here's some of mine, how do you like the warts, eh?)

[rivka.livejournal.com]

But once you invoke the police, emergency services and/or the landlord, your neighbor is going to try to involve you as a way of getting back at you for your interference.

It's interesting that you and fourgates are the only people who have brought up the possibility of retaliation against us. It was all I could think about, the time I called the cops. The easy, spiteful, hard-to-defend-against choice would be to call Child Protective Services on us.

[counslr-tragedy.livejournal.com]

Ai! Child protection - I wasn't even close to considering that as a retaliatory move. On the other hand, if you've already made your own phone calls to the police/emergency services, those would be logged as a matter of course, and, paraphrasing ljgeoff further in the comment stream, the CP folks could easily see that your neighbors had attempted to use them to get back at you.

("Easily see" or so I hope - I tend to think darkly at such moments, and this can color both my actions and the outcomes...)

I mentioned it in part because I had a neighbor get retaliatory about my noise complaints (but he wasn't nearly as viscious I was as I feared) and also in part because I wanted to chime in with something different from an umpteenth reiteration of "call the landlord/police/emergency services". Ah, the joys of a shared forum, eh?

(Thinking more good thoughts for you, as well.)

[beckyzoole.livejournal.com]

We own rental property, and I would beg you to please let the landlord know what is going on, quickly and in the strongest terms possible. These people are negatively affecting the value of the property. They are making you consider leaving -- you, the good tenant renting the expensive part of the building. They can be heard outside, probably more frequently than that one time, and probably by more people than just you and your family. That means they are degrading the value of the property.

When we rent out our upstairs apartment, we include in the lease a clause explicitly stating that if the police are called to the property more than twice in one year, the lease is voided and the tenants turn into month-by-month renters.

State laws differ, but even without such a clause your landlord may very well be able to refuse to renew their lease.

The only drawback to getting them to move is that the victim might decide to stay with the abuser, thus leaving your sphere of influence... but it doesn't look like you're going to be able to do much to help her anyway. (There is also the possibility that there is some mutual abuse going on, a fairly evenly-matched power struggle that becomes violent when they've had too much to drink.) Losing their apartment may be the reality check that makes one or both of them realize that this relationship is not acceptable.

In the meantime, you owe it to yourself, to your family, and to your landlord to refuse to tolerate this couple's behavior.

[zeldajean.livejournal.com]

I had a related situation night before last. I'm staying at my friends for the weekend; he lives on the second of six floors, right above the main entryway to the building. Apparently a couple got locked out of the building (proximity key fobs to get into the building). The guy kept screaming and yelling, and yelling at the girl about how it was her fault they were locked out and she should have her keys and no he didnt have his either. This is in the middle of the night, and I couldn't see going to find the non-emergency number for the local police to call in a noise complaint. Then I heard him hit her. HARD. I was reaching for my phone for 911 and the cops pulled up. Apparently someone else called in the noise complaint. (He got taken away.)

That long paragraph to say, I'd keep calling the cops. See if you can figure out who is doing what. Talk to thelandlord. And when they ask, maintain your stance of getting involved to prevent someone getting hurt, as you did before, and for protecting your daughter and family as a whole from thatkind of violence.

I'm sorry to hear you're in this situation, it genuinely sucks.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Please at least talk to your landlords about this. I'd call the police too, were it my decision to make.

[ailbhe]

I'd talk to the landlords and call a local domestic violence advice line to see what else they suggest. It's impossible to tell who's the abuser in this situation, not least because I can think of a dozen reasons for the abuser to yell "I'm not letting myself get hit like this any more" all of which end... badly.

I would also see about asking another neighbour if they'd heard anything recently, if you could find a misdelivered letter to redeliver... That kind of noise is likely audible from other houses.

[fourgates.livejournal.com]

Also in no particular order:
- I've had incidents like this twice. In both incidents, the abuser and abused ended up getting married months after police incidents that should have split them up.
- I generally don't hesitate to get involved as necessary, but I'd be hesitant to offer my home as a shelter. The abused is not going to simply get a clue (or spine) overnight. It's possible that if your home becomes a safe cool-off spot, then you'll be integrated into the dynamic in a fairly long-term basis (and could actually prolong the wake-up period).
- If you're perceived as an "unfair" participant in the dynamic, the abuser may well turn on you. Slimeballs who are willing to hit people are generally willing to make veiled threats as well. I suspect it wouldn't take much (for example, "I really worry about Alex picking up something dangerous on the sidewalk out here" with the appropriate stare) to freak you out. Then perhaps you'd want to live somewhere else, and the abused one would lose a source of strong wake-up signals.
- Natural consequences are the strongest signals. Harsher natural consequencs are stronger signals. The abused seems pretty impervious to natural consequences (getting hit), so a more complex dynamic is probably at work. Still, I believe when people do wake up they do so having looked back at the story of recent years and contrasting that with a more hopeful one. IMO, homelessness would be nice punctuating event, but a forced move is also pretty good.
- If they're both yelling it's likely that there's self-blame involved with the abused. Also, it may be that they're both physically abusive.
- Your landlord may rely on your calls to the police as evidence to evict them. Run up the count as much as you reasonably can, and keep a log with details.
- Calling the police for noise complaints alone will fairly quickly lead them to lower the priority of the calls. Do it anyway.
- If you hear what sounds clearly like violence, say to the 911 operator "I hear what clearly sounds like violence. If you do not respond promptly, I will assume that you are liable." I'm fairly sure that this is in fact not the case (I have a vague memory of a Supreme Court ruling a couple of years ago saying that the police do not in fact have a positive responsibility to respond to such reports) but it may light a fire under them.
I feel like I have the responsibility to do something to make it stop. Your responsibility is to call for help when there is clear and immediate danger. Beyond that you can (optionally) provide a signal that things are very much not OK. It's unlikely that the signal will be dealt with appropriately any time soon, so you can only bump up the amplitude or vary the signal type, if you're motivated to go down that path.
They're both women, so we can't go by either the voice...
Perhaps you'll be a clearer voice sample if things continue in this way.

By the way, I'm of the opinion that recording sounds entering your own home is fair game, but my google fu is weak in verifying this. I did dig up an interesting dissenting arugment by Justice Stephens in Kyllo vs. US (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-8508.ZD.html), which I believe is somewhat tangentially related.

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

One other thing that you might consider doing... this might sounds weird and/or not be comfortable, but it also might help you and them both. How about inviting them over for dinner, "We've been neighbors for years now, but I feel like I hardly know you." Talk to them, get to know them better. Find out where they're from and who they are. That may clarify personalities, abilities and responsibilities for you -- and that will also introduce you to the abused party who may come to realize that they aren't entirely alone in the world with their abuser.

I'm not suggesting you have them over to dinner and during the cheese course lean over and ask, "So which of you does most of the hitting". I'm just suggesting a non-confrontational way to understand them better and open your side of the dialogue.

[ljgeoff.livejournal.com]

Ok, as a person who's been in a physically abusive relationship, I'd say that calling the landlord is good advice. Continuing to call the cops is good advice. Focus on what's important for Alex.

Unfortunately, I'd have to say that getting personally involved with these guys is not a good idea. Well, unless you *like* getting sucked into chaos.

Also, I've had someone whom I had to kick out of a room that I was renting to them call protective services on me. Protective services did have to do a follow up, but when they found out that the "concerned" person was an evicted tenent, I think that they filed charges on her. They really, really hate being used.

A final note about wake-up calls. I know that it's very difficult for normal people to get their heads around it, but when I was being physically abused, I thought that I deserved it and that it was my fault. Waking up from that is a lot more than just a head-slap D'oh (or police intervention, or a suicide attemp, or homelessness); even after I left him, it took years to wake up.

[huladavid.livejournal.com]

Sorry to hear about this, and hope it gets happily resolved soon. I'm worried about any possible retaliation, but part of that comes from experience. There's a "mouthy smart-ass" side to me that I have to keep in check when I'm in situations like you're in. Fortunately I was working with a friend doing anti-bashing work, and learned a couple of good "tricks". For example, there was the bashing I intervened in earlier this year. The guy doing the assault started to come towards me when I yelled at him to "STOP IT", but ran off when I started yelling his licence plate information at the top of my lungs.

I hope I don't worry you, but do you have good locks on your doors? You might want to see if your landlord would be willing to pop for better ones, if need be.

Anywho, take care, and best thoughts towards your family.

[porcinea.livejournal.com]

I agree that continuing to call the cops when you hear violence is a good course. Frankly, I'd worry more about other actions than one of them calling CPS -- a) CPS is overworked and b) you're obviously good parents. And c) the neighbor is obviously aggrieved.

I personally would be unable to resist leaving a lesbian services domestic violence flyer taped to their door. Which doesn't mean it would be a good idea.

Calling the landlord and calling a domestic violence hotline yourself are both excellent ideas that I would never have thought of. I'm glad I read the comments on your post. Useful ideas for the next time I find myself in such a situation.

[vom-marlowe.livejournal.com]

I'd say keep calling the cops, but please make sure your house security is as strong as you can make it. My mom called the cops on an abuser next door in her duplex. The guy tried to come through her window, with a knife, in retaliation (did break the window, did not make all the way inside). The woman, who was injured at the time by the knife, forgave him and blamed my mom. Just a cautionary note. My mom continues to call the cops when she witnesses violence and felt it was worth it, but you have a small child, so YMMV. If the violence keeps escalating, I would ask the landlord to consider transfering your lease someplace less violence prone. Sorry to be a voice of doom and gloom.

[(Anonymous)]

What a mess! You have my sympathies. I've read all the comments and you've already gotten some great advice.

I definitely agree with the advice to tell the landlord ASAP and to call the cops as often as feasible.

I think you have a moral obligation to give first priority to protecting your family. For example, I don't think you should chance inviting these people into your home. And their friends don't sound very nice either.

I'm afraid you are going to have to let go of any feelings that you should strive to be non-judgemental in this situation.

Perhaps you could make some sort of minor friendly overture such as taking over part of a cake (that you presumably brought home from an office party) and saying you didn't want it to go waste.

If they're both druggies, there's not much you can do. If there's mutual abuse, there's not much you can do. If one's a clean abusee, there's a tiny chance you'll figure out which one.

Grandma Susan

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

Well... have you called the police, and laid all this out for them? They might be able to help; if not, if anyone can, they might know who can.

If you feel you must be available to help, in case there's abuse going on, try to catch either one of them alone, and just ask if something is wrong; try to do it in a kindly way, not an accusatory way. The key is, not asking "is something wrong with your relationship", just a "hey, how are things going? Is everything okay?" A completely open ended question, that might tell a victim that she could talk to you if she had to. In any case, if you're told that there's nothing wrong, accept it at face value. Then, if it was noisy the night before, mention that. This is a not-uncommon way to bring up a complaint of this nature... start by making conversation, then bringing up the real issue.

But please remember that one of the reasons police are careful about domestic disturbances is that they are dangerous, especially during the actual shouting. Emotions are running high, and you don't know what the people might do.

You're right that Alex shouldn't be exposed to this; if it's a rental unit, I would make complaints to the landlord every time it occurs. If it gets them evicted, who knows? They might decide that it's easier to separate than find a new place for both of them.

Hugs offered... this sounds like a nasty situation to be in.