I leave comments.

[rivka]

Elsewhere on the net, someone posted asking what she should do with a free sample of infant formula. After commenting on how gross and creepy the ingredient list is, she says, "I'm a little uncomfortable with donating it to a foodbank, I'd rather donate MY milk to help other Mamas.

Is it safe to give my cats?"

I replied:

So *are* you donating your breastmilk to a food bank, and in your experience are most mothers who use food banks comfortable accepting donated breastmilk from a stranger? And do they have proper storage for frozen milk, and the resources and knowledge to do home pasteurization? Will places that distribute food to folks who are very poor even deal with breastmilk?

Donating milk to a milk bank is a great idea, but it's probably going to go to a mother who has the resources to keep her baby from going hungry even if she couldn't get milk donations. There's nothing wrong with giving to help that mama and that baby get the really good stuff instead of formula, but it's not equivalent to a food bank situation.

I guess I'm saying: please don't give something to your cats that could be used to keep a poor or homeless baby from having to go to sleep with an empty belly. It's not like a homeless mother living in her car is going to relactate if she finds that the food pantry doesn't have any formula.

Fortunately for my blood pressure, the comments are running 8 to 1 in favor of donation. But that one opposed is a doozy: Honestly, I throw mine in the trash. I figure if that crap wasn't readily available then more women would breastfeed instead of automatically reaching for it. However, PP's have made me feel terribly guilty about trashing it.

I hate the Mommy Wars in all their incarnations, but what drives me furthest up the wall is the idea that we can somehow improve the state of American motherhood by punishing mothers who are poor or desperate. No: by punishing their children.

I understand that privilege, by its very nature, is often invisible to those who possess it. I understand how someone can thoughtlessly say "all mothers should..." or "all children should..." without stopping to consider whether they all have the resources or privilege to do so. But what kind of person still thinks that way even cued with the specific context of a homeless shelter, battered women's shelter, food bank? Who thinks of a mother caught in that situation and thinks that if her kid goes hungry at least she'll finally realize that she made the wrong choice at birth?

Comments

[ricevermicelli.livejournal.com]

Lots of idiots, apparently.

I especially love the "is it safe to give my cats?" angle on this one. Yes, formula, which (say what you will about it) has significantly reduced the incidence of infant death related to malnutrition, might be too icky for your precious kitty.

[ailbhe]

Well, also, in the same way that you don't give straight from the mama cow cow-milk to baby humans, you don't give something optimised for baby humans to cats!

[ailbhe]

I guess I'm saying: please don't give something to your cats that could be used to keep a poor or homeless baby from having to go to sleep with an empty belly. It's not like a homeless mother living in her car is going to relactate if she finds that the food pantry doesn't have any formula.

You are brilliant.

[ailbhe]

Also, what's a PP? (and hasn't anyone ever told her that no-one can make you feel guilty, that's something one does to oneself, and she wouldn't feel guilty if she didn't know she'd done wrong?)

[rivka.livejournal.com]

"PP" is boardspeak for "previous poster."

(and hasn't anyone ever told her that no-one can make you feel guilty, that's something one does to oneself, and she wouldn't feel guilty if she didn't know she'd done wrong?)

*snort* Oh, you're evil. I am soooooo tempted.

[kate_nepveu]

I think your icon is not nearly strong enough.

[chomology.livejournal.com]

Those folks are right up there with the "formula should only be available by prescription" brigade.

By my logic, if one finds the prevalence/availability of infant formula that grossly offensive, one would have all the more reason to donate free samples or coupons, given that the formula manufacturers will see that much less revenue as a result.

But that takes away all the fun that comes from withholding basic resources from economically disadvantaged, recently postpartum mothers, doesn't it?

[ailbhe]

"formula should only be available by prescription" is something I'd like to see... in places with universal healthcare free at the point of service. I'd like it to cost the health service more to *refuse* adequate breastfeeding support than to provide it. But here, breastfeeding support is volunteer-based and healthcare is state-funded, so it's a bit different.

I'd also like babies who need formula to get it, always made up full-strength, whatever their parents' economic status, and as all child prescriptions are free here (adults pay a nominal fee), that would work ok.

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

"formula should only be available by prescription" is something I'd like to see... in places with universal healthcare free at the point of service.

I'm curious, in the light of your comment further down - does that mean you think people whose reason for not breastfeeding is "that's not something I'm willing to do with my body" should have to see a doctor before they can feed their baby the way they want to? Seems like an unnecessary drain on GP resources to do it that way, and I think it would also make it easier for privileged women to choose formula than for less privileged women (since knowing how to/having the confidence to navigate the NHS and other forms of officialdom is a classically middle-class, English-speaking privilege.)

[ailbhe]

Not every time, and of course midwives and health visitors can write prescriptions, but yeah, I think making formula available through the medical model would greatly reduce the ability of formula manufacturers to undermine breastfeeding, which is currently the choice primarily available to women who have the education and confidence to fight the NHS and the voluntary-run organisations which support breastfeeding mothers - currently that support isn't available to women without that privilege unless they are mindbogglingly lucky, and even fewer women can pay for expert advice privately.

I think very very few women would end up fighting for the right to use formula compared to the number of women currently fighting (or not being allowed to fight) to breastfeed - two thirds of women *are* willing and able to try breastfeeding, and there have been lots of surveys to show that most women stop because of external factors and not just because they want to.

What I can't work out is a way to get everyone able to actually make a choice without anyone having to fight the system for it. Or enough donor milk in scbus. But in another 20 years or so, I think we might be ready (because of adequate breastfeeding support) to change the way postnatal medical people handle formula.

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

What I can't work out is a way to get everyone able to actually make a choice without anyone having to fight the system for it.

I think making formula prescription-only would be a step too far, but I think there might be a case for restricting sales to pharmacies (albeit OTC.) I'd also like to see the advertising ban extended to follow-on milks, or at least more regulation of what they can say - some of the current ads clearly portray follow-on milk as an alternative to breastfeeding, which not only promotes the early formulas via the back door, but could generate enough confusion to result in very young babies being fed a milk that's too concentrated for them.

[ailbhe]

Oh, I was thinking of the kind of rolling prescriptions people use for specialist formula milks, where they collect their milk from a certain point without having to visit and revisit the doctor once they have the initial - sometimes it's from the health visitor clinic, or the doctor's surgery, or the local pharmacy, whatever they choose. And I do think free at the point of collection is important, too, though a certain amount of that is already available to specific income groups (some women use it to get the pre-mixed sterile-packed stuff for giving to childcarers so that they know their baby is getting the right mix when they aren't there).

[ailbhe]

It's also possible that the social change which would be necessary before such a step could be taken would obviate the need for such a step, of course.

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

It is really good to remind and be reminded of what the world looks like through different eyes.

[ex-serenejo.livejournal.com]

Good/maddening.

[geminigirl]

When it comes down to that kind of crazy, I push towards the "People who it's often recommended shouldn't breastfeed, like women with HIV"-usually the reminder that there are women who fit both "need assistance with basic living needs like food" and "shouldn't breastfeed because of health reasons" works well enough, unless you're dealing with HIV denialists, but that's a whole basket of eggs I'm just not willing to get into.

[ricevermicelli.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but Mothering Magazine published some tripe some time back that claimed that if HIV positive women breastfeed *exclusively*, they won't pass the virus to their babies.

I wouldn't be so mad that they published something so stupid and patently false, except that there are people who *believe* it.

[geminigirl]

Yes, of course. And Peggy O'Mara is an AIDS denialist...which is why I won't give her money even though I like some of the articles in her magazine. But not all the readers of the mothering.com boards (which sounds like it might have been where this conversation took place) are in that camp, so there's half a chance that that approach works well enough to get someone to give it where it's needed.

[ailbhe]

There are ways that it can be done, sometimes, which mean it's safer for women who are being refused asylum claims and sent back to dangerous, war-torn countries to breastfeed even if they have HIV because once they are forced back to the country they're fleeing from they do not have the option of safe formula feeding if they have the option of formula-feeding at all.

My personal preference is to give these women somewhere to live, food, medical care, and formula, but the powers that be aren't listening to me.

[kcobweb.livejournal.com]

I want to comment, but if I try to summon words, I think my head will explode. So I'll just say, thank you for being the voice of reason in the wilderness of the mommy wars.

[wild-irises.livejournal.com]

Completely leaving aside all the economic arguments (even though I agree with them completely), what about mothers who simply cannot breastfeed for whatever biological or situational reasons?

[ailbhe]

Mother-baby pairs who can't, even. Though honestly, "this is not something I am willing to do with my body" seems plenty reason enough to me.

[wild-irises.livejournal.com]

Completely agreed!

Formula exists, and as someone upthread said, it has had a significant positive effect on reducing infant malnutrition. If it didn't exist, the personal decision not to breastfeed for "unwillingness" would be an enormously difficult and high-consequence decision. But its very existence makes choice feasible. And I don't see how that's anything but A Good Thing.

[ailbhe]

I do believe that its marketability and profitability has removed choice from women *too* but that's not the same issue at *all*.

My paternal grandmother fed her babies dilute cow's milk before formula was available (rural Ireland, early 20th c). One died, several were sickly. Some women *do not want* to breastfeed. Their babies should have free formula.

[jinian.livejournal.com]

The punishment idea seems very much in keeping with how an awful lot of people think kids should be kept in line too, especially re: sex.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Oh no, on this board if you advocated talking to actual kids like that you'd probably be banned. Only adult women benefit from vindictive punishment.

[ex-serenejo.livejournal.com]

May I steal your icon?

[rivka.livejournal.com]

My understanding is that it's fully shareable. My userpic page says where I got it from, if you want to credit them.

[ex-serenejo.livejournal.com]

Cool; thanks.

[marydell.livejournal.com]

You are so, so right.

Also, my understanding is that in order to produce enough milk for a baby you need to take in a decent number of calories yourself? Which might be challenging for a mom who is depending on a food bank to feed herself and her family.

[(Anonymous)]

I know from personal experience that it IS possible to produce enough milk on not enough food.

While I found out that well fed (American) mothers apparently produce milk that is NOT as watery as mine was, my babies thrived on it and ate it longer than they would, I assume, had there been more other food to give them.

Of course, I also became anemic and lost my teeth. So - while I am happy my children survived and I see that producing enough milk made raising them so much easier, it had a price and that price was MY health.

[marydell.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you went through that, and I hope things have improved for you.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

After commenting on how gross and creepy the ingredient list is

I think part of the problem is that some of the organic crunchy granola knit-your-own-yogurt lactivists have gone so far as to denounce formula as "poison". If you think that a foodstuff is actually bad for a baby, you won't want to donate it even to a woman in dire need.

I don't know what those of us on the side of "Everyone who can safely breastfeed should, but isn't it great that science exists to help those who can't?" can do about this :/

[ailbhe]

Keep talking. I was even a member of boob_nazis for a few years until I burned out. But it's grim.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

All I can think is, I am so glad I am well out of this debate at this point. I'd have blown a gasket.

Seriously. How can anyone ....

Nope. Brain shuts down.

[ex-serenejo.livejournal.com]

This makes me so sad. (Not your posting it; the situation you posted about.)

[elusis.livejournal.com]

I have a terrible habit of reading the comments to news articles on the SF Chronicle's website, SFGate.com.

Many, many people think that way if the comments are to be believed. The poor should stop being so poor, the sick should get well, the young should grow up, and the elderly should... die? I'm unclear on that point. But people should take responsibility for themselves and if they have to suffer because they fail to do so, well too bad.

Anyone who can't transform themselves overnight should probably die on the streets, but not San Francisco's streets because those damn homeless have ruined everything. They should go back where they came from (wherever that is). If you have access to the Internet and you're also homeless/on food assistance, you're a lying welfare cheat. If you have children who need government health care, you shouldn't have had those babies if you couldn't take care of them, and maybe watching them suffer will teach you a LESSON. And if you are accused of a crime (accused, not even convicted), the SFGate commenters can't wait for you to get raped in prison.

It. Is. Vile.

It makes my general misanthropy far, far worse, to know that this is how (some) people think about their fellow human beings.

Not just SFO

[panacea1.livejournal.com]

... but every newspaper commentariat and the vast majority of general-interest message boards out there. This is nothing new, the electronic version goes back to the dawn of Usenet (I'm dating myself here) and before then, there was the old crank who wrote letters to the editor of the newspaper (but zie had to buy hir own postage stamps, and there was limited space for publication, so the frothitude didn't show quite as much.)

A few thoughts as to why/how the intellectual/emotional descendants of "You Kids Get Off My Lawn" have taken over the public discourse --

1) The anonymity / pseudonymity / distancing effect of teh inturnetz makes it easy for one's internal 15-year-old Omniscient Libertarian (I know I have one and suspect a lot of us do) to spout off without having to actually, you know, acknowledge the reality of Those People Over There.

2) We all like easy answers. Some of us also like complex, nuanced answers - but easy answers are, well, easy. And ideally, also fast, cheap, and with the burden of investment (of time, effort, resources) on Somebody Other Than Us. Because having to work for our own answers isn't easy.

3) People who feel threatened often lash out; the corrolary is "When somebody starts flailing around, poke carefully and see what zie's seeing as a threat." Is not always the target they're lashing out at because it's much easier (see above) to attack someone weaker than you are than to fight back against a more powerful threat.

[micheinnz.livejournal.com]

It makes my general misanthropy far, far worse, to know that this is how (some) people think about their fellow human beings.

You should try working with them.

There are days I'm really glad that my job sometimes involves blowing stuff up.

[elusis.livejournal.com]

You may not be aware of the fact that I'm both a graduate school teacher and a therapist. :)

[micheinnz.livejournal.com]

Okay, you win. Even though I'm a high-voltage tester who really does sometimes get to blow stuff up.

[elusis.livejournal.com]

I will now experience job-envy for a bit, because that sounds really good.

[micheinnz.livejournal.com]

It's massive amounts of fun, and I do occasionally get to blow holes in things. Or set them on fire.

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

This makes me want to buy a few cases of formula and drop them off at the local homeless shelter.

[ailbhe]

That's always a good idea. Diapers, too. Like, disposable ones made of stretchy high-tech plastic.