(no subject)

[rivka]

Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions
(4) requires excessive admiration
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

The Internet is a good place to be a pathology watcher. Not in the way that countless amateur net.pyschologists operate, cataloguing the emotional deficiencies of their opponents in Usenet debates or dispensing diagnoses and prescriptions to anyone with a downcast tone. That stuff drives me crazy. But the Internet is sometimes a good place to catch the feel, the flavor, of a disorder you've only read about. I know lots and lots of people with narcissistic traits - I'm sure you all do, too - but I've only ever once diagnosed someone with full-fledged narcissistic PD. I've never seen a really florid case in my practice. I think I'm seeing one now, though, in an online forum. There's a feeling to it, a sort of flash of illumination: "Oh! So that's what the thisness is behind the list of diagnostic criteria."

The last time I had this feeling online was in July, when my brother pointed me at this site. The scanned letter at the link is from our grandfather, and as far as I can tell the author of the page has paranoid schizophrenia of the coherent, well-organized sort. Reading through the links I had the same feeling of disturbed recognition. Made worse, I think, because my grandfather was involved - even peripherally - as a subject of his delusions.

When I thought this current guy was a fool, I was amused. Now that I'm pretty sure he's got a mental disorder, I'm feeling more sadness than anything else. I'm watching people bounce off his pathology and get angry, and I recognize that this probably happens to him again and again and again and again.

I don't know where I'm going with this. I just wanted to say it.

Comments

[sinboy.livejournal.com]

Care to join pleonastic and me in the gallery for some popcorn?

I too was aggravated by the group's response, BTW. I dunno if he's a real < fitb >, or just annoying, but I do think he's a drain on the positive energy I get from alt.poly. Someone like Chris (choxnpix, IIRC) is different, him, even though he royally pissed me off sometimes, could at least be talked to. He listened sometimes.

BTW, did you notice that Al Montrestuc (sp?) is back too. It's troll week at the poly saloon.

[saoba.livejournal.com]

I could make some of my writer kibble for the gallery, she said diffidently.

(Writer kibble: Into one large ziplock bag put 12 oz. cashews, 6-12 oz. M&Ms, 2-3 cups cheerios. If
sharing with fruit allergic person, shake now and put their share in a bag. Otherwise proceed to the adding of 1/2 cups raisins, shake. Keep on hand near keyboard for those moments of staring unhappily at a wall searching for words.)

He's well into the Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain, I am the Great and Powerful Oz stage. I hadn't realised how far into that he'd gotten or I might not have replied to him at all.

At any rate, I'm all for amiable hanging out not feeding the troll.

Barbara

Re:

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I too was aggravated by the group's response, BTW. I dunno if he's a real < fitb >, or just annoying, but I do think he's a drain on the positive energy I get from alt.poly.

I'm not so much aggravated by the group's response, actually, because... hm. I'm having trouble articulating this, but essentially, I think it's hard to avoid getting sucked into this kind of pathology even if you know what's happening. And in this case, people didn't - he was a stranger when he came in, and the full flower of his arrogant imperturbability in the face of argument has just been obvious in the last day or so.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

The concept of it being pathological never even occurred to me.

And I'm not sure how I feel about the possiblity that it is.

There's a part of me that feels that it would be disrespectful, patronizing, *not* to get angry. To me, that would be saying that his ideas don't matter.

Because, if it's pathological, then, to me, his ideas *don't* matter.

If he's arrogant and annoying, and I get angry at him, then his ideas *do* matter.

And I hate the idea of saying that someone doesn't matter.

Ah, well. The thread's done, anyway. I wish I'd read this earlier, so I could have considered this possibility. I don't know how I would have changed my actions. Well, my three most snarkiest comment, I shouldn't have posted. . . but then, I knew that when I was posting them.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

There's a part of me that feels that it would be disrespectful, patronizing, *not* to get angry. To me, that would be saying that his ideas don't matter.

Because, if it's pathological, then, to me, his ideas *don't* matter.

If he's arrogant and annoying, and I get angry at him, then his ideas *do* matter.

And I hate the idea of saying that someone doesn't matter.

Well, I think that he matters as a human being. I'm not letting go of that. Nor am I letting go of the recognition that his ideas are wrongheaded and pernicious, and that it would be a shame and a pity if other people who encountered them believed them. What I'm letting go of is the idea that my input into the system will have some effect on him.

One does have to be very, very careful about attributing someone else's beliefs or experiences to pathological causes, because it can be unfairly dismissive. But... well. If you had a kid in your class with untreated ADHD, and you were telling him to settle down and sit still every two minutes, the only practical effect would be that both of you would be frustrated. Trying to use logical arguments to convince this guy that he's mistaken is pretty much just like that.

[redbird]

I could use some popcorn, I think. When I find myself arguing with Tal and this new person-without-a-real-name on the same day, I need help something, like a deep breath and a movie. (Spirited Away was very cool, btw.) That he writes long, breathless, almost unreadable prose is actually a help--because it means I'm not reading so much as skimming.

And you folks have seen my paragraphs.

[redbird]

I'm now most of the way through the monster alt-poly thread, and have plonked the Idiot Du Jour publicly.