Quick question for my European readers...

[rivka]

...is this person smoking crack, or what?

While I agree with the general consensus that it's a bad idea to push your kids too much, I have to say that when when I was in preschool (in Europe) we all had to learn how to read, write, learn multiplication tables, long division, addition, subtraction, inequalities, a foreign language, AND we played a lot.

It was pretty much the norm to know how to read and to have basic arithmetic skills *long* before you entered elementary school, and we never felt like we weren't having fun.

So if I had a choice, yes, I'd definitely want to send my kids to that kind of a preschool. It's not about being ahead of everyone else (because, like I said, in my case, I was just average when I could read when I was three). It's about the fact that no one can learn like a child can, and you only have a certain number of years before your brain starts turning into mush. Why waste those years with nothing but play?

Is it really "just average" for Europeans to be reading at three, and doing long division before the age of five? I've always been under the impression that Europeans are more likely to have a "let children be children" philosophy than Americans, but I'll admit that I don't have much to base that impression on, besides the big progressive educational philosophies (Montessori, Waldorf, Reggio Emiliana) all being European in origin.

(Obviously, I'm not going to run out and buy a lot of flash cards if she turns out to be correct. I'm just curious.)

NB: I don't think we're talking about a radical cultural disconnect about which ages constitute "preschool," because this is someone who now lives in the United States. She never specified where in Europe she is from; she included all Europeans in this comment and her further elaborations upon it.

Comments

[ellarien]

That doesn't match my experience (UK, late 60's). I had no preschool at all, though some children did go to 'nursery school'. I started school a few months before my 5th birthday, knowing how to write my name and read most of my letters but not much more, which was considered a little advanced but nothing extraordinary. That 'reception' class certainly included reading, writing, and simple arithmetic, as well as painting, semi-structured sand and water play and completely unstructured messing around with dolls, but long division didn't come until I was about nine or ten, I think.

[juthwara.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who used to be a reference librarian for a clearinghouse on early childhood education, this person is definitely smoking crack, especially the part where she claims only North Americans don't teach their preschoolers long division (we apparently read the same blog). For instance, there's an article here talking about changing preschool curriculum in England. They give a sample progression of skills towards the end which expects three year olds to be introduced to the concept of print and words, and only be able to start to read simple words and sentences by the age of six. And this is an article about how the curriculum has been changing from a child-centered curriculum to more academic. Even the academic model has four-year-olds counting to 10, not doing arithmetic.

I also found it odd that she seemed to think learning through play consisted entirely of free play, instead of a combination of free play and organized activities like playing games, reading books as a group and singing and dancing. That's all learning through play, but it's also directed and organized towards learning specific things. It doesn't have to be either children playing on their own or children chained to their desks.

[abbylee]

It's "learn multiplication tables, long division" that pushes it over for me. The rest of it, yeah, there's a huge disconnect where some kids are well versed, and some kids aren't, and the various ways they got that way, but I'm totally uncomfortable with the idea of a class of 4 year olds learning *long* division.

[naomikritzer]

I am not European, but I just want to say that this person is totally smoking crack.

[naomikritzer]

OK, I want to expand on my statement.

I believe very strongly in the value of play. I also read to my kids and do all the standard enrichment things that parents are supposed to do, like encouraging physical play where you name body parts, games where you count things, singing the alphabet song, all the usual stuff.

Both my kids went through a phase where they could "count" in the sense that they could recite numbers, but could not count objects. Then they understood the concept, but were very sloppy about it. (Kiera is at this stage now.) Then Molly hit the point of really getting it, and was able to count really high, and now she's understanding the concept of arithmetic, though she can't necessarily tell you offhand what 7+8 is.

By the same token, before she learned to read, Molly first had to recognize all the letters as distinct shapes. Kiera doesn't recognize the letters yet, though she can sing the alphabet song and a song where you sing the sounds the letters make -- the visual distinction between the letters just doesn't seem to be there yet. Molly learned the shapes, then the sounds, then started recognizing words from when we read to her, and then started reading independently. (And then and only then started sounding words out. Go figure.)

I really believe that there has to be a certain cognitive readiness or you're wasting your time, and more importantly, your child's time. (Because your child could be doing something productive and age-appropriate, like playing with Play Doh or banging on a pot with a spoon or drawing pictures.)

Because, I also know a little girl who was adopted from China a year and a half ago, and is now a kindergartener. This little girl did not speak English when she arrived here and of course did not recognize any of the English letters. She now knows all her letters, and the sounds they make, and can sound out simple words. Because though this was new to her, she was cognitively ready for it in a way that Kiera isn't yet.

Though there are the occasional outliers, three-year-olds are generally not ready to learn long division or memorize multiplication tables, and it strikes me as utterly insane to suggest that they should be doing so.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Have you read Einstein Never Used Flash Cards? The general thesis is that there's no benefit to trying to push early academics, but along the way they present a fascinating review of the steps of early intellectual development - for example, all of the different concepts that you need to understand in order to be able to count. That's the cognitive readiness you're talking about.

I just have no words to describe how wrongheaded it is to think that small children's time is "wasted" if they're not memorizing early academics, rather than playing. Playing is such an incredibly rich and stimulating developmental activity! As you say, they're going to pick up a lot more that's productive from playing with Play Doh in the preschool years than from doing phonics drills with flashcards.

I make an exception, of course, for kids who genuinely have the cognitive readiness to learn academics early. (Like thette, below.) But that doesn't speak so much to early teaching. Alex knew her letters by shape pretty early, but if she hadn't picked it up on her own, I wouldn't have set out to teach her this early.

[laurent-atl.livejournal.com]

as a frenchman and a heir of 4 generations of teachers i totally agree that this person is having delusional memories.

on the other hand, the few crackheads i have known did not have much delusions revolving around preschool education. but i hear smoking ritalin will have weird side effects..

It completely and utterly depends

[mcduff.livejournal.com]

"Europe" is even less of a homogeneous entity than the USA is. Is this person talking about France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, the UK... seriously, what? It makes a difference, not least because primary education is legally mandated to start at radically different ages. I think here in the UK we're the earliest, at 4 -- Germany holds off until 7, IIRC. So "pre-school" could mean anything from 2-3 to 5-7 -- a huge difference.

I actually can't remember much about my own preschool experience, but I can guarantee that long division and (the real kicker) a foreign language were certainly not a part of it. I remember my parents taught me basic algebra before I learned it in school, but this is probably neither here nor there.

It's possible that said crack-on-or-otherwise person went to a private pre-school in a Scandinavian country, where such goings-on are (I would assume with absolutely no information whatsoever) possibly more common than elsewhere. But I would sincerely doubt that they are the norm across the entire half-billion population of Europe.

Re: It completely and utterly depends

[therealocelot.livejournal.com]

Foreign language is actually the part I find most believable, as early childhood is the natural time for language acquisition. It makes much more sense to start teaching a foreign language at the preschool level than as a preteen/teen, as is typically done in the US.

Long division, on the other hand - I can't even imagine how you'd teach that to a child who doesn't yet have the motor control to write clearly.

[roga.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on where this person is from. They're making generalizations about 'all Europeans', obviously, but there's nothing wrong with each of the separate assumptions: I have Russian friends who say they were expected to know reading/writing/calculation before any kind of schooling, and there are multi-lingual European countries, so speaking more than one language makes sense (plus, it's very easy to learn as a child, just from exposure to the language. Me and my sisters learned English by the age of 6, my youngest sister just from TV and computer programs, not from living in the US.)

When the poster was in preschool could also be a factor.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on where this person is from. They're making generalizations about 'all Europeans', obviously, but there's nothing wrong with each of the separate assumptions

Well, now I think it's just someone with a major axe to grind about where she is now living (e.g., the U.S.). As she has been following up, trying to explain herself, she came out with this:

now think it is a person with a major axe to grind. In a later comment, she said:

I teach college kids. and my experience is that the poorest immigrant from the remotest village in Africa is still way ahead of the kids that have gone through the US (public) educational system.

As someone who went to U.S. public schools through the twelfth grade, and followed up her private college education with a public university graduate program, and now frequently works with poor immigrants from remote villages in Africa, let me just say: all-righty, then.

[hawkida.livejournal.com]

It's not the case in the UK, I don't know about continental Europe.

[sciamanna.livejournal.com]

When I entered primary school at age 6 in Italy, I was one of the 3 pupils in my class who could read (I don't remember how well I could write, probably some). This was in a mostly middle-class area in a big city, not the backwards boondocks.

This was also many many moons ago. However, from all I hear, the situation has not changed that radically. They now start teaching a foreign language in primary -- but not in preschool. And long division... yep, that sounds like hallucinating all right...

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the original thread, but this looks like a troll to me. Here in London, our kids' preschool (we call it a nursery school, but it's the same thing) aimed to have the children read and write their own names and count to 10 by the time they went on to primary school at 5. Children who could do these things before 5 were given help to progress further, but there was no pressure, and there were no targets for formal learning beyond those two. The focus was very much on socialisation. They did teach a little spoken French, as a sort of fun extra, and a little sign because there was a Deaf child in my daughter's class, but there was no specific goal attached to either of these. My own German preschool passionately believed that children should not read before 6, and found me quite a nuisance because I could read fluently from 3.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

My own German preschool passionately believed that children should not read before 6, and found me quite a nuisance because I could read fluently from 3.

Was it a Waldorf school?

I heard an anecdote about a mother who believed so strongly in the Waldorf philosophy of no reading before seven that, when her four-year-old started showing serious determination to read, she removed all books and magazines from the house. Isn't that horrifying?

I was reading fluently at 3, too. I don't ever remember not being able to read, and the idea of someone trying to prevent me from reading early is very uncomfortable.

Here, my preschool-aged Religious Education kids (who are mostly three and four, with a few who have just turned five) can mostly write their own names. I expect that they can mostly count to ten. Last week when I asked them to each take six pieces of crepe paper for an art project, the only one who needed help was the youngest three-year-old.

[annafdd.livejournal.com]

I certainly didn't know how to read, write and add up at preschool. And I don't know anybody who did.

[mjlayman.livejournal.com]

Sure you do.

maybe she is from eastern europe

[laurent-atl.livejournal.com]

i remember east german high school students were far ahead of their french counterparts, they might have had a really early start.

[takumashii.livejournal.com]

Data point: at my school in France, we started a foreign language in 2nd grade, and long division in 3rd. (I didn't go to preschool there).

[clstal.livejournal.com]

Who-ho, a question I get to have an opinion on!

I'm in Sweden, I'm an american. I'm taking teacher education classes with a bunch of other exchange students at my swedish university.

From what I have learned of other school systems (and we just finished presenting our home system to our classmates) this person is totally smoking crack.

In Holland they have a similar sort of pre-school that we do, though a year younger - and pretty much they play and work on social interaction and sitting quietly and 'school prep' sort of stuff.

In Sweden, it's about the same, but at 6... very similar to my experience in the US (MI/OH early 80s).

Germany - similar

Japan - don't think it was covered, they mostly focused on the high school and testing aspects of their ed sys.

Poland - were anyone to come close to this, I'd bet with the polish school system, at least judging by the complexity and holy-shit level of achievement expected of their students. However, I know they don't start 'long division' that young, though they may start English and certainly do similar sorts of learning that we have in the US.

That's it for my classmates, and I can't speak for much else.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

It's not the case in Germany--in fact, while "Vorschulen" ('preschools') were popular many years ago, they don't really exist anymore. There is some early childhood education in the "Kindergarten" (pre-schoolage daycare, mostly) system, but it's nothing like this.

-J

[perceval.livejournal.com]

I agree - German kids start at 6, there is very little formsl instruction at kindergarten, and German primary schools like to take things s.l.o.w.l.y. In fact, the kindergarten's emphasis on pure play has been criticised severely recently. This is undoubtedly partly b/c of the abysmal staff/kid ratios: you can and do get 1:10 or 1:12 . 1:8, the minimum in the UK, is exceptional.

[not-a-number.livejournal.com]

I guess it kind-of applies to the former USSR. I grew up at Ukraine (Born 1985), started reading at the age of three years, nine months and 14 days (Mom kept a diary with amusing quotes and developments), but that was probably home schooling and not kindergarten education. What I do know, is that when I went to the first grade, I was expected to know how to read but not how to write, and as far as math - I think we skimmed past addition, subtraction, multiplication, simple division and probably even multiplication table in two months or so because almost everybody knew it. I do remember handling square roots and powers at the end of the 1st - beginning of the second grade.

When I immigrated to Israel after being 2.5 years in Ukrainian school, I knew all of the math material up to the end of 6th grade of Israeli school.

On the other hand, nowadays I hate math. Maybe it has something to do with a math overdose during grade school.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Thanks for weighing in! That's really interesting. Were you equally ahead of other Israeli students in other fields, or was it primarily the math?

On the other hand, nowadays I hate math. Maybe it has something to do with a math overdose during grade school.

Hee! Maybe so. I've seen some research suggesting that children who get a lot of early drill and memorization do much better than their peers at first, but even out or even fall behind later on - possibly because of fatigue or burnout. I don't think it's been very well-studied, though.

[cheshyre]

FWIW, I didn't *have* to do any of that, but went to Montessori preschool thru first grade and *was* doing most of that by the time my parents switched me over to public schools.

[ranunculus.livejournal.com]

It's either a troll, or perhaps the person is confusing grade levels and using incorrect labels for schooling. I've had several conversations with people in Brittain about the comparisons in school grades and have gotten terminally confused. If you suggested that -grade school- kids could do all of this, instead of -preschool- kids it would be about right. But then I don't read this person's blog.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I now think it is a person with a major axe to grind. In a later comment, she said:

I teach college kids. and my experience is that the poorest immigrant from the remotest village in Africa is still way ahead of the kids that have gone through the US (public) educational system.

So, yeah.

[ink-monkey.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not European, but that sounds a lot like my preschool. We didn't have to do long division, but we did have to know our multiplication tables, be able to do simple division with remainders and write in legible cursive by the time we finished kindergarten. It was essentially a feeder school for the local prep school, though, so I don't think was average by any means.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

We didn't have to do long division, but we did have to know our multiplication tables, be able to do simple division with remainders and write in legible cursive by the time we finished kindergarten. It was essentially a feeder school for the local prep school, though, so I don't think was average by any means.

Yeah, that was probably a pretty bright bunch of kids. Although I'm surprised that a bunch of kindergarteners had the physical dexterity to write in legible cursive.

I wonder what the educational philosophy behind it was. Do you know? I mean, I can easily see that five-year-olds would be able to memorize the multiplication tables - look at how many of them have memorized the names of thirty different dinosaurs - but I have to wonder why you would want them to.

[ailbhe]

It was normal for kids to be reading fairly fluently (whole sentences unaided), reciting times-tables, and doing basic addition and subtraction with understanding - by the age of seven, in Ireland. Before that a lot was expected and not achieved by easily half the student body. I was reading single words at 3 and I was definitely exceptional; my mathematical skills were also unusual. I had no foreign languages but two native ones.

The Swedish children I've observed can read a bit and add and subtract a bit and sing a few songs in English before they start school at seven. They don't all go to preschool but most of them do.

Among our acquaintance, most of Linnea's age-peers (3 or almost 3) in England are being strongly encouraged, at least, and sometimes pushed, to count and to identify letters; some of them want to, some don't; some understand what's going on, some are rote-learning for strokes. They're also generally being toilet-trained, in some cases in the face of screaming tantrums and in others with enthusiastic cooperation from the child.

[fourgates.livejournal.com]

When W and I were looking at private schools in Portland, we checked out the German American School, which apparently doesn't subscribe to any particular philosphy other than to teach as they might in Germany. At that school, they don't teach any math or language skills until the first grade, when they dump them into neat rows and hand out worksheets, etc. Kindergarten at that school is explicitly for social development.

[beckyzoole.livejournal.com]

Montessori is common in Europe, and Montessori preschools are generally set up to allow a child to learn to read, write, add, subtract, and even multiply and divide -- if the child really wants to, and is capable of doing so.

(When I was first out of college I worked as an assistant in a Montessori preschool.)