Borrowing trouble.

[rivka]

Went to church this morning - it was Springfest, which meant lots of songs and stories and people dressed up and adorable children in a dragon costume. As soon as we sat down, curiousangel called my attention to the list of upcoming services in the bulletin:

April 21 Fidelity in an Age of Pleasure Rev. John Manwell
In this seventh in our occasional series on the Ten Commandments, we ask what the commandment against adultery can mean for us in an era when we more and more justify the pursuit of pleasure. What shall be our ethic of sexuality?

Well.

This is, after all, a Unitarian church - it's a liberal faith. It embraces diversity. Our church in particular has a very strong LGBT outreach program. The whole basis of Unitarian-Univeralism is for members to support each other in our own spiritual journeys, recognizing that the paths we each take will be different. But. As we learned in the UU church in Iowa City, when we said we wanted to be married by saoba, Wiccan priestess... there are hidden illiberalities.

We talked about it, tentatively, in the car on the way home. Neither one of us is much inclined to the Big Speech method of coming out; we'd always intended to eventually be out at church, but we wanted it to happen naturally as people knew us better. And yet I found that I really didn't like the idea of sitting in a pew listening to a sermon about monogamy being the sine qua non of fidelity. Misha is hopeful that the sermon will focus on the true meaning of fidelity - being true to the vows one has made - and won't equate fidelity and monogamy. I don't know. I wish I thought I could be sure.

At this point, we're thinking that we'll e-mail Rev. Manwell and ask him if he can find time to meet with us before next Sunday. But I'm uncomfortable about doing this now. It feels rushed, and it's also... well. If we're not welcome because we're poly, that's something we need to know. And yet it's something I'd hate to find out, because I feel so happy there.

Gosh.

Comments

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

But you are faithful, just not monogamously so.

I hope that your church leaders can recognize the difference.

And I'm sorry that the Iowa City church wasn't willing to let you be married by the person you wanted. :/ She rocks, and I'd have her marry me in a heartbeat.

Re:

[rivka.livejournal.com]

But you are faithful, just not monogamously so.

That's how we look at it too. We exchanged rings "in token of my faithfulness and love," and understood that to mean that we intended to keep faith in our vows.

And I'm sorry that the Iowa City church wasn't willing to let you be married by the person you wanted. :/ She rocks, and I'd have her marry me in a heartbeat.

Yeah, we left the church and got married in the college chapel instead. saoba did a lovely job, and if you ever do get married I recommend her wholeheartedly.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

i know that jennie and elise have both dealt with poly things in uu churches; you might want to talk with them.

i hope this goes well for you.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

My bad experience was actually in the United Church of Christ, not with the Unitarians. One of my partners and I were members, and I wanted to use the church for a ceremony with my other partner. The minister was thrilled to perform it; he was poly himself (though closeted). Plenty of gay and lesbian marriages had been performed in the church; it didn't seem like it could be a big deal. But when we applied to use the church for our wedding, we were turned down. We weren't given a reason why.

I went in to appeal the decision, with a carefully written argument in hand. I expected to read my argument, and then have a discussion with them about it. They listened to my argument, and then shut me out of the discussion. A week later I was told that the decision was upheld. Not only that, but the minister was forbidden to perform the ceremony elsewhere. It was the Unitarians who bailed us out -- they helped us when we were scrambling to find another minister and another place to hold the ceremony, and everything went well on that front. There were no issues at all as far as the Unitarians were concerned.

I never went back to my church after that. I know from other sources, though, that a "witch hunt" started, during which my minister was very publically outed as being poly, and subsequently "defrocked".

-J

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Yeah... it's a dilemma. I think you should talk to the Rev between now and then too. I wish I were going to be in town next week - I'd offer to come along with you. But as you know I'll be elsewhere then.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

Oh, eek. I *get* this. Let me know if you want to talk about it.

-J

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

Assuming there are people who know you well, I think there's a better-than-even chance that you'd manage to pull out a "Okay, I thought this polyamory stuff would have to be evil, but since it's Rivka...".

If you're in a more urban area with higher population density (I think it'd be hard not to be...), I think that works in your favor, as well. In a smaller area, you might have such small groups of people that the only reason they're Unitarian is that they're not (Christian Church 1), (Christian Church 2) or (Christian Church 3), and can't reconcile with any of those. They're not there as Unitarians, they're there as "we don't have anywhere else to go". (Yeah, it's partly guess and partly generalization, but it's also a reason to think things'll work out better this time.)

I hope things work out, on a whole bunch of levels... I'm glad that you're happy, and I want that to continue; and, I'd love for the church you're going to to continue to have the benefit of your presence and wisdom.

[elisem.livejournal.com]

f it would help, I could offer to give your minister copies of my remarks from the pulpit on Pride Sunday last year (I was one of three speakers). Or to put your minister in touch with my minister, if mine is willing. (Well, I've got two, really, but it's one in particular I'm thinking of.)

Polyamory is no more a code of "anything goes" than Unitarian Universalism. That's one of the things I told them, and a fair number of them got it.

[elisem.livejournal.com]

(whups, linkage confusion. sorry, jp)l