Oh, for God's sake.

[rivka]

Ninety people enrolled in our study so far, and I've interviewed at least half of them myself. Other than the guy who stole my phone - a fair-sized exception, I'll admit - I haven't really had any trouble. In particular, I've been getting through some pretty damn explicit questions about subjects' sex lives, without any problems beyond waiting through some nervous giggling.

I had been, anyway. Whatever luck or calm clinical demeanor was protecting me, it's worn off. Damn it.

Friday:
In the course of explaining to me why it is that he hasn't had sex recently, a subject says "I still have thoughts. I mean, I'm having them about you right now."
Me (instantly): "Let's leave me out of this."
Him: "What?! You have to know that every guy who comes in here is thinking those thoughts about you. Are you telling me that you don't have those feelings?"
Me: (fixes him with the steely glare of no-more-of-this-buddy)
Him: "Don't you?"
Me: "Let's go back to my question. What are some of the reasons why you haven't had sex? You say you still have sexual interests."
Him: (gives an actual answer to the question.)

Today:
Me: "Have you had any other sexual transmitted diseases besides HIV, like gonorrhea, syphillis, chlamydia? Do you have herpes? Do you get warts around your penis?"
Him: "No. I do have a bump on it. Do you want to see it?"
Me: "No, I don't want to see it. That sounds like something you should show your doctor."
Him: (agreeably) "Okay. I'll tell my doctor about it, because, you know, it could be something serious."
Me: "That sounds like a good idea. Okay, moving on..."

But the guy kept shifting around, adjusting himself, sticking his hands into his (very loose) pants. I think he was getting aroused by the interview, which is bad enough, except then suddenly I looked up and his penis was sticking up over the top of his pants.

Me: (looking down at my questionnaire, speaking firmly.) "Put it away, please."
Him: "Oh! I'm sorry, Rebecca." (re-adjusts clothes.) (answers more questions; says a little later) "I'm sorry my penis was showing, Rebecca. I have to get some new pants."

For. God's. Sake. Two subjects in two days. Practically two in a row.

Neither one of these guys was really playing with a full deck. I actually don't think that the first guy was trying to get a rise out of me - he was trying to answer my question, in a misguided way, and he got off on an inappropriate sidetrack. The second guy... not so sure. He's on some heavy psych meds, and it was hard for me to read him. I don't know if he was actually out-of-it enough not to notice what was going on, or if he was deliberately exposing himself to me and then playing innocent. At any rate, I truncated the interview because I didn't feel comfortable continuing to ask him sex-related questions.

But even if neither one of them was trying to upset me or be overtly sexual towards me: Ick. Ick. Both situations were really unpleasant. And today, I was even a little scared - in that first minute when I looked up and saw his penis, and didn't know how things were going to go.

I don't want to do this anymore. I know, most of the men I've interviewed have been perfectly appropriate, but all I can think of is that I want to ask Lydia to let me take a break from data collection for a while. But there's no one else to do it. I'm sure Lydia and Lauren don't want to look at subjects' penises either.

Argh.

Comments

freaks

[torquemada.livejournal.com]

I've had girlfriends who've had dates like that.

[jinian.livejournal.com]

Well, okay, they don't want to. But you don't want to, either. Nobody's wishes trump anyone else's. And, like you said, normally it hasn't even been a problem. I'll bet if you mentioned it they'd be willing to let you have a break. If I were one of them I'd demand to be allowed to do it for a while instead of you; you shouldn't have to keep doing interviews immediately after two disturbing ones in a row.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

After the guy exposed himself today I did two more interviews: both of them very nice, respectable, fully clothed women. I didn't arrange that deliberately, but I was glad it happened that way.

I'm not sure. It wouldn't hurt the study for me to take a week off from data collection, and I'd like to, but on the other hand if I stop doing interviews I might have a hard time starting again. Avoidance tends to reinforce itself.

I'm waiting for my boss to call me back. I'm going to tell her about it and find out what she thinks will be best.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree with your instincts on this. Don't avoid the situation and then go back to the exact same thing. Modify it and keep going, or get out.

-J

[mittelbar.livejournal.com]

Absolutely, trade jobs. I mean, if there's still the option of doing something else for a while.

One of my dad's roommates came into the bedroom I shared with my sister on visits, once, drunk, and hassled her to sleep with him. She got him to go away (for some reason getting my dad to deal with it at that point wasn't an option). I traded beds with her, without hesitation. Not just because she was my sister, but because I figured she was already rattled and I knew what might be coming and was psychologically prepared for it. (Well, OK, I didn't reason quite that explicitly 12, but that was the idea.) It was scary to face, but it made all the difference that I was fresh.

Did anyone even *offer* to help with this? Is it somehow inappropriate for someone else to do these? Share the joy.

If that's not possible, is there any way to change the interview setup so you have an out that doesn't rely on you outsmarting assholes? Or any way to pre-discourage people from harrassing you? Is there anything, besides privacy, about the interview situation that makes you appear especially vulnerable?

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Did anyone even *offer* to help with this? Is it somehow inappropriate for someone else to do these? Share the joy.

I've got a call in to my boss, to see how she wants to handle this. She already runs subjects herself - I do about half of them, and she and the intern do the other half. So it's not like I'm the only one involved in data collection.

As I said in my response to jinian, I'm not sure that stopping data collection wouldn't make my avoidance urges worse. We'll see. Maybe a short, time-limited break. Already I'm not due to go back until Friday.

If that's not possible, is there any way to change the interview setup so you have an out that doesn't rely on you outsmarting assholes? Or any way to pre-discourage people from harrassing you? Is there anything, besides privacy, about the interview situation that makes you appear especially vulnerable?

Well, I'm asking explicit questions about sexual behavior. Other than that... honestly, I'm dealing with people who are often not very socially high-functioning, who often have mental illnesses (this guy today was on all kinds of heavy tranks), the majority of whom have prison records. I've had people come to see me (for the study or for therapy) who were nodding off from a recent heroin injection. It's a rough crowd, and it's a testament to their good will and my clinical skills that I haven't had more problems.

Unfortunately, the precautions we need to take to preserve subject confidentiality prevent a lot of common-sense kinds of things that would make me feel safer. For example, there's a glass door to the interview, and a burly male receptionist just outside the glass door who might have a deterrent effect - except that we've hung heavy curtains over the glass for privacy and noise protection.

I'm not even sure I can call this guy's psychiatrist and tell him that he exposed himself to me. I think that might be protected information under our confidentiality arrangement. That's one of the things I'm waiting to hear from my boss about.

[mittelbar.livejournal.com]

Yah, that back-on-the-horse thing is definitely your call.

('Course, last time I got back on a horse that threw me, it took off running and scraped me off against a barn. Ha ha.)

Good clinical skills indeed. You're the coolest. (Do you think there's a possibility of being in *danger*? Hm. Is there any literature on this kind of problem?)

[rivka.livejournal.com]

('Course, last time I got back on a horse that threw me, it took off running and scraped me off against a barn. Ha ha.)

*snort* So I guess you find that particular aphorism unpersuasive, huh?

Good clinical skills indeed. You're the coolest.

Thanks. Right now I don't feel like the coolest, but it's certainly true that I work with difficult clients all the time, without major incident.

(Do you think there's a possibility of being in *danger*? Hm. Is there any literature on this kind of problem?)

The receptionist really is just on the other side of the glass door. If I yelled, he'd come in, and he's a big strong guy. Also on the other side of the glass door is a busy waiting room. For that matter, the room is arranged so that both the subject and I have a clear unobstructed path to the door. So there are limits to what could actually happen to me. With regard to the literature - no, guys who expose themselves to strange women usually aren't violent.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm asking explicit questions about sexual behavior. Other than that... honestly, I'm dealing with people who are often not very socially high-functioning, who often have mental illnesses (this guy today was on all kinds of heavy tranks), the majority of whom have prison records. I've had people come to see me (for the study or for therapy) who were nodding off from a recent heroin injection. It's a rough crowd, and it's a testament to their good will and my clinical skills that I haven't had more problem.

I think you've nailed the situation right there. When I read this entry, my first thought was, "Oh, ICK!" - but my second was: "Well, two out of 90 (or even 45) ain't bad, considering the population she's dealing with." And I admire the heck out of the way you managed to maintain and move things along under the circumstances.

That doesn't change how this kind of behavior makes you feel, I'm sure, but you might try reminding yourself of how many Not-Bad interviews you've conducted for this project.

I often wonder how healing professionals deal with their own emotional responses to the often trying people and subject matter they deal with every day. Is there a support system in place that can help you sort through experiences like this?

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I think you've nailed the situation right there. When I read this entry, my first thought was, "Oh, ICK!" - but my second was: "Well, two out of 90 (or even 45) ain't bad, considering the population she's dealing with."

Well, but let's see: of the 45 I've probably interviewed myself, just under half of them were women, and about twenty percent of the men were gay, but then you have to add back on the lesbian and bisexual women, and... oh, hell. Yeah, mostly things have gone very well. It was just having them both in a row.

Talking to Misha this evening: it's not so much that what happened today - and Friday - was so insurmountably awful, or that I think I handled it badly, it's that I've lost my confidence that it's a safe study to do. I'd convinced myself that nothing worse was going to come of all those sexual questions than some mutual embarrassment or maybe a refusal to continue, and now I've lost that illusion.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I forgot to add:

I often wonder how healing professionals deal with their own emotional responses to the often trying people and subject matter they deal with every day. Is there a support system in place that can help you sort through experiences like this?

Supervision - even for people further along than I am - is a big part of it. That's when you meet with someone else in the same profession to discuss cases and feelings about cases and any particular struggles you're having. My supervisor should be able to help a lot, but I wasn't able to reach her today.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

In the summer of 1995, I did my fieldwork in Germany. I had a "contact person" in each of the forty-four towns. Their homes were where the research took place, and also where I spent the night. One of my "contact people" turned out to be extremely busy, and arranged for me to come stay with her parents instead of with her.

When I arrived at her parents' house, I discovered that the original contact person's mother was going to be out of town the whole time I would be there, leaving me alone in the house with her father. This didn't bother me at first, but over the course of the time I was staying there (two days and two nights), he made a number of what I now realize were inappropriate comments about my appearance. He also asked me lots of questions about my life which I wouldn't have had trouble answering under normal circumstances, but he was beginning to make me feel uncomfortable. The worst part was that he kept hugging me. He'd come up and say: "Can I hug you?" and then he'd hug me. It was very, very strange.

I remember feeling that I couldn't just leave, because 1) I needed the people he was putting me in touch with as research subjects, and 2) he was doing me a huge favour in letting me stay there in the first place. So I stuck it out, and nothing dramatic ended up happening. I'm pretty sure that if I were in a similar situation now, though, I'd say research be damned.

For what it's worth, I don't particularly want you to keep doing this work, either, at least not with a research protocol that leaves you alone in the room with these men.

Is there any way to modify the protocol to take your safety more into account?

-J

[wcg.livejournal.com]

I hope Lydia has a reasonable solution to offer. While I understand the need for all of you to do what you can to insure patient confidentiality, some things are just beyond the pale.

I don't think you're drawing hazardous duty pay for this.

[wiredferret.livejournal.com]

Ick! Bad man go away!

[saoba.livejournal.com]

I could get Mikhail to build you a cattle prod to keep on your desk, she said helpfully.

*hug* I hope the boss and the team can figure out some way to ensure your safety and the client's privacy. I echo wholehearteldy the idea that your good clinical skills have no doubt helped keep this from being a bigger problem.

And I will refrain from giving in to the urge to take up a post outside your door and giving *meaningful* looks to arriving clients while cleaning my nails with a bright shiny knife.

*hugs*

Barbara

[anisoptera.livejournal.com]

Isn't there some sort of standard boiler plate sort of thing to say at the beginning. Like this interview is about you not me, please do not ask me any personal questions.

I am saying this clumsly, hopefully you can catch what I mean. I have never been solicited by a client, but it is something we teach all the students to be ready for and deal with.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Isn't there some sort of standard boiler plate sort of thing to say at the beginning. Like this interview is about you not me, please do not ask me any personal questions.

Usually that's something that can be smoothly discouraged as it comes up, without interrupting the flow of the interview or making me sound closed-off. I deflect personal questions all the time. But at the same time, in a clinical interview like this I want to be flexible. If a woman is starting to tell me something about her relationship with her husband, hesitates, and asks me "Are you married?" - I'm going to nod, or say "yeah," because it's more important to encourage her to disclose whatever it is she wants to say than it is for me to insist on not disclosing personal information.

I had already deflected several personal remarks from the guy who was interrogating me about whether I fantasize about random men. Including a direct exchange - Him: "What, you mean you get to ask me all these questions and I don't get to ask you anything?" Me: Well, yeah, because I don't want us to get distracted by stuff about me. What's important is your experience and your ideas."

[anisoptera.livejournal.com]

Thanks for clarifying this for me. I see now it is a completely different situation.

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this helps any, but what you said makes me feel that the second guy was trying to expose himself intentionally... both the way it happened, and the low key way he was able to talk about it strike alarm bells for me.

I don't know for sure, of course. But, I've been dopey both from meds and from my ADHD 'brainfog', and embarrassment still registers, both internally and externally.

I hope the remainder of the subjects are trouble- (and asshole-) free.

Yerp

[ororo.livejournal.com]

Is there any way these men can be removed from the study because of this kind of behavior, or dismissed from the interview to be taken up at another time?

*hugs* Lots of good thoughts in the comments already, IMO. I also think that taking time off could make you dread the next encounters more, which could lead to you not being at your best.

At one of the bookstores where I worked, we had frequent visitor who looked like a slimy version of Chuck Berry. He was known as MM, for Mad Masturbator. He hung out in the romance section and liked to masturbate and come into the books. He was usually too fast for mall security to catch. A firm, "Stop it and get out." sent him running. He always came back, though. Not quite the same, since you're in privacy mode with them. Do you have a phone or intercome where you could page the receptionist for assistance?

*hugs* because I don't know what else to say.

Re: Yerp

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Is there any way these men can be removed from the study because of this kind of behavior, or dismissed from the interview to be taken up at another time?

I'm the study coordinator. I can drop anyone from the study that I want to. Fortunately.

[elisem.livejournal.com]

I can't get this to exactly go into words, but I keep thinking over the incidents you recount, particularly the first one, and pondering the difference between "exposure by answering questions about sexual matters" and "physically exposing oneself", and about how some people get... power? validation? balance? through one but find the other scary... I'm not connecting these thoughts well, but I thought your response in the one case, about saying that it was the subject's thoughts and experiences that were important, was really good. But there's something just off the tip of my mind, and I can't get it into a coherent thought....

Do you start out the interview by saying that if they come up against something they don't want to answer, they can choose not to? Is there some way to make that particular option to set a boundary (i.e. we can choose not to go down a particular pathway) useful for making it clear that there are boundaries you can and will set, too? Not by anything as clumsy as saying so, as that would have other and less useful side effects, but... somehow by framing it, or something?

{incoherent lioness tonight, but offering these questions in case they are useful}

It's hard work, from what I see you say. I agree with Bill about the hazard pay thing. And yet, I am very glad there are people willing to do this kind of (sometimes onerous) work. ....

No coherent answers here, just general ponderings, plus a big dose of Rivka-appreciation.{

Re:

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Do you start out the interview by saying that if they come up against something they don't want to answer, they can choose not to?

Absolutely. It's in the consent form in more formal terms, but here's how I explain it orally (which I do for everyone, because who knows how closely they read the consent form, or even if they can?):

"I ask about some pretty personal stuff: I ask about sex, and I ask about drug use. Because of that, we keep your answers totally private. They'll be marked with a number instead of your name, and only my boss and I will ever get to see them. But even so, you're free to say 'I don't want to answer that particular question.' Okay? [...pause to explain some other stuff...] This is a completely volunteer study. What that means is that it's totally your choice whether to participate - you can stop at any time, or refuse to answer any question. Okay?"

Also, the questions about sex come at the very end of the interview (well, there's one more section after that, but it's rare that people answer "yes" to the screening question for that section, which is "have you injected anything at all by needle in the last 30 days?", so essentially sex is the very last thing, after we've discussed a fair number of other topics and (hopefully) developed some measure of rapport and comfort.

[faithw.livejournal.com]

I've read through this and all the responses.

I admire your ability to work through what had to be an uncomfortable situation. I worked for an AIDS group doing public relations work while in college as part of my community service (scholarship requirement) and have read your posts about your study with interest.

For your safety, could your research be done with two interviewers at all times? Do you have enough personnel? Would it discourage the interviewees from answering or mess up your data collection? I would think that might curb some of the behaviour you are describing in your post.

Another thought...how is the room you do interviews in set up? Do you have a clear path of escape if someone takes a more forceful approach? I know you say you could yell for someone, but some day you might not have the luxury of yelling.

I'll keep GoodThoughts(tm) out for you that you don't have something like this happen again.