(no subject)
Jul. 15th, 2002 03:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rivkaLast night Misha and his mother Laura were out picking up dinner, and I was home with Laura's husband Richard. We started a mild sort of conversation as I was setting the table, and in the space of five minutes he was shouting at me, interrupting me, challenging me, making no sense, all at the top of his lungs.
This time his ire was directed at blacks in Florida, for not rioting after the 2000 elections "the way they did with Rodney King." He thought this was inconsistent; I pointed out that he was talking about completely different people in each circumstance, and that black people aren't obligated to all behave the same way. And then he was completely off to the races, championing rioting as a means of social change. "They had their nonviolent marches in the 20s, the 30s, the 40s, nothing changed until they started rioting and destroying things! The Voting Rights Act, that came after the riots. That came after they went out there and fucked shit up. Because people were afraid. I'll tell you what makes for political change: Black Panthers as a military force, armed, with weapons, willing to kill people. And that got them money, that got them power, that got them a black city council, that got them jobs... your political shit isn't going to do anything. It was the riots! I was there! I was there! Where were you?"
Shouting. Foaming. At. The. Mouth. In my dining room. Does he really believe it? I doubt it - for God's sake, this is a man who worked in political campaigns for years. He doesn't believe that armed revolution is the only means of social change. I have no idea why he decided to take that position with me - it's just one more in a string of irrational, intensely emotional arguments he's launched into ever since they arrived here just over a week ago. It's been damn near impossible for me to disengage from him - he's too loud, too intrusive, too provocative, too constant, and Misha and Laura are often - as they should be - focused on each other. That leaves me faced with Richard, and I'm not handling him well. Last week I found myself telling him to shut up - words I probably hadn't said in the past ten years.
Laura's told Misha that he's bipolar, and inconsistent about taking his medicine. Laura's told me that Richard really really wants to be able to discuss ideas with people, and just doesn't seem to be able to change his manner. She spends a lot of time when we're together trying to keep him pleasant, or at least quieter.
Where does this leave me? Frustrated. Tired. Damn it, I work with difficult people all day. I want to come home, if not to perfect peace and amiability, at least to a lack of shouting and the company of people who strive to be pleasant to each other. I get crazy at work; I don't find myself with much tolerance for crazy at home.
And yet at the same time, I feel bound up in a complex set of obligations: ancient rules of politeness (these people are my guests); kind intentions toward Laura, who feels fragile enough about establishing a relationship with Misha without me winding up in open battle with her husband; my own standards of civilized and pleasant bahavior, which prevent me from ignoring him entirely; and the resented-but-still-bought-into belief that, as a therapist, I have a responsibility to be more tolerant, more understanding, more forgiving of human frailty, than the average civilian.
Yesterday, Laura said that they hope to stay another week. They're not staying with us - they have an RV - but there's certainly a default assumption that the times we're not working will be mostly spent with them. She said she didn't want to burden us, but she also said that she's had so little time to get to know Misha that she doesn't want to pass up any time she might be able to have now.
We both said what, I think, was the only thing that we could have said in the circumstances: that we'd be delighted. I was hoping that mostly the reason it sounded like an awful idea was because I was tired from the Nashville trip, but today I've still got a fist-sized lump of frustration and resentment in my stomach. On the one hand, I feel like I could - and should - put up with a fair amount of inconvenience, for Misha's and Laura's sake. What they're trying to do is important, and it deserves my support. On the other hand, I just want my space back. My quiet space.
This time his ire was directed at blacks in Florida, for not rioting after the 2000 elections "the way they did with Rodney King." He thought this was inconsistent; I pointed out that he was talking about completely different people in each circumstance, and that black people aren't obligated to all behave the same way. And then he was completely off to the races, championing rioting as a means of social change. "They had their nonviolent marches in the 20s, the 30s, the 40s, nothing changed until they started rioting and destroying things! The Voting Rights Act, that came after the riots. That came after they went out there and fucked shit up. Because people were afraid. I'll tell you what makes for political change: Black Panthers as a military force, armed, with weapons, willing to kill people. And that got them money, that got them power, that got them a black city council, that got them jobs... your political shit isn't going to do anything. It was the riots! I was there! I was there! Where were you?"
Shouting. Foaming. At. The. Mouth. In my dining room. Does he really believe it? I doubt it - for God's sake, this is a man who worked in political campaigns for years. He doesn't believe that armed revolution is the only means of social change. I have no idea why he decided to take that position with me - it's just one more in a string of irrational, intensely emotional arguments he's launched into ever since they arrived here just over a week ago. It's been damn near impossible for me to disengage from him - he's too loud, too intrusive, too provocative, too constant, and Misha and Laura are often - as they should be - focused on each other. That leaves me faced with Richard, and I'm not handling him well. Last week I found myself telling him to shut up - words I probably hadn't said in the past ten years.
Laura's told Misha that he's bipolar, and inconsistent about taking his medicine. Laura's told me that Richard really really wants to be able to discuss ideas with people, and just doesn't seem to be able to change his manner. She spends a lot of time when we're together trying to keep him pleasant, or at least quieter.
Where does this leave me? Frustrated. Tired. Damn it, I work with difficult people all day. I want to come home, if not to perfect peace and amiability, at least to a lack of shouting and the company of people who strive to be pleasant to each other. I get crazy at work; I don't find myself with much tolerance for crazy at home.
And yet at the same time, I feel bound up in a complex set of obligations: ancient rules of politeness (these people are my guests); kind intentions toward Laura, who feels fragile enough about establishing a relationship with Misha without me winding up in open battle with her husband; my own standards of civilized and pleasant bahavior, which prevent me from ignoring him entirely; and the resented-but-still-bought-into belief that, as a therapist, I have a responsibility to be more tolerant, more understanding, more forgiving of human frailty, than the average civilian.
Yesterday, Laura said that they hope to stay another week. They're not staying with us - they have an RV - but there's certainly a default assumption that the times we're not working will be mostly spent with them. She said she didn't want to burden us, but she also said that she's had so little time to get to know Misha that she doesn't want to pass up any time she might be able to have now.
We both said what, I think, was the only thing that we could have said in the circumstances: that we'd be delighted. I was hoping that mostly the reason it sounded like an awful idea was because I was tired from the Nashville trip, but today I've still got a fist-sized lump of frustration and resentment in my stomach. On the one hand, I feel like I could - and should - put up with a fair amount of inconvenience, for Misha's and Laura's sake. What they're trying to do is important, and it deserves my support. On the other hand, I just want my space back. My quiet space.
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no subject
Date: 2002-07-15 01:33 pm (UTC)Don't get caught in the therapist thing: he's not your patient, he's not taking his meds, and it's not your responsibility.
and more *sympathy*, lacking anything better to offer.
Blah in-laws
Date: 2002-07-15 01:43 pm (UTC)He says that his mother's schizophrenia wasn't this bad when he was growing up, but wow.... It's okay when she remembers to medicate. Then I only have normal in-law problems with her (my bad housekeeping, her desire for me to have a baby girl to dress entirely in pink). When she's off it, though.... oy!
What I do is ask him to give me 'time off for good behavior'. If I go and spend time not telling his family that they are bigoted jerks about the situation in the middle east, then maybe next time he will tell them that I have other commitments, and he goes to handle them while I go off to the museum or something like that.
So maybe it's fair to say, "Of course we'd like you to stay longer. However, I have some previous commitments next week, on Tuesday and Thursday. I'm sure you'll understand that I can't break them." Then go off and do something quiet and nurturing for yourself -- a date, a museum trip, an evening in the park, reading.
What Richard does to amuse himself is up to him and Laura.
Re: Blah in-laws
Date: 2002-07-17 06:11 am (UTC)Ow. Ow. I'm really sorry that you have to deal with that. That sounds a lot worse than bipolar disorder in a rarely-seen not-really-related inlaw. Yikes.
So maybe it's fair to say, "Of course we'd like you to stay longer. However, I have some previous commitments next week, on Tuesday and Thursday. I'm sure you'll understand that I can't break them." Then go off and do something quiet and nurturing for yourself -- a date, a museum trip, an evening in the park, reading.
This, as you may have seen, became part of the plan. It turns out that having this to look forward to makes me feel a lot less trapped. Thanks.
Re: Blah in-laws
Date: 2002-07-17 08:56 am (UTC)Schizophrenic
Depressed
Addicted
It's scary. It's not something I have tools to deal with. I don't know a lot of other people who hear music that isn't there.
no subject
Date: 2002-07-15 01:46 pm (UTC)Honey, bullshit. Years ago on Usenet someone tried to pull that on me - "how can you be so MEEEEEEANNNN and say you're a therapist" - because I wouldn't tolerate their bad behavior. It's crap. If he's paying you and doesn't have the dual relationship of family ties, that's one thing. But that's not the situation. You didn't sign a statement when you went into your profession promising to be utterly tolerant and kind to all people everywhere no matter what. Having the tools to step back and analyze the situation from an informed perspective once you're away from it is one thing, but when you have an irrational and abusive person in your face, you are not expected to be a saint.
My two cents? If you want them, that is. Tell Laura and Richard that you would be glad to have them stay for another week on the following conditions:
1) Richard takes all his medications every day starting now.
2) If Richard shows signs of not having taken medications and of being out of control, the local mental health crisis assessment team will be called to deal with him.
3) If he is verbally abusive and aggressive toward anyone, the visit will be asked to end there.
4) You and Misha will get at least one night very soon to just spend with each other.
5) You will get X amount of time after coming home from work, before going to bed, whenever you need it, free from dealing with guests.
And, Laura and Misha can spend time together without dumping Richard on you. He can go be in the RV alone, or go to a movie, or stay in your house alone while you go out and do something relaxing. You're not his babysitter nor his punching bag.
Oops, how did that soapbox get here? [kicks it away]
Best of luck.
no subject
Date: 2002-07-17 06:19 am (UTC)Hee. Good point, and one I occasionally need to be thwapped with. It doesn't help that there are plenty of people out there who are ready to point out that they do have those higher expectations of me - but at least I shouldn't be aiding and abetting them, huh?
My two cents? If you want them, that is. Tell Laura and Richard that you would be glad to have them stay for another week on the following conditions:
1) Richard takes all his medications every day starting now.
2) If Richard shows signs of not having taken medications and of being out of control, the local mental health crisis assessment team will be called to deal with him.
Huh. These two have the tinge of overinvolvement, to me. The way I see it, it's not my place to determine whether or not Richard's taken his medicines, or to insist that he do so. It is my place to set standards for how I am willing to be treated, and to enforce those standards. I'd rather keep this focused on his behavior in my home rather than getting involved in how he's managing his disorder.
We actually had a very satisfying conversation with Laura last night, in which I pretty much said everything I said in my LJ post. It's been established that shouting is unacceptable, that I'm under no obligation to entertain Richard when Misha and Laura are together, that I'm going to set verbal limits directly with Richard if he's making me uncomfortable, and that I'm going to be taking some time to myself this week. It was good.
no subject
Date: 2002-07-21 10:44 am (UTC)Nod. I suppose if he was still trying to find proper meds (and not just forgetting to take them), and was sincerely sorry for his behavior, one might expect "a therapist" to be willing to accept the apology in the face of a real attempt to make things better. Since that doesn't sound like it's the case, no guilt should be imposed on you by you, or by anyone else, IMHO.
no subject
Date: 2002-07-15 02:19 pm (UTC)Sympathy, too. Not sure what I'd do in your situation, and I don't envy you a bit. Perhaps, "I'll thank you not to yell at me in my home," might do something towards helping.
My firm opinion is he's responsible for his behavior. Meds or not. Diagnosis or not. I get a little tweaked when folks use that as an excuse for poort= behavior, and no way around it, yelling at your hostess is nothing but, IMO.
no subject
Date: 2002-07-15 02:52 pm (UTC)Actually, you might consider doing that, if it continues to be this bad. You have my sympathies.
-J
no subject
Date: 2002-07-15 02:58 pm (UTC)Unless Misha is never going to see Laura again, they have other times and places to work on their relationship.
I think elusis's ground rules idea is a good one. This guy is way over your boundries and it does no one, you, Richard, Misha, Laura any good at all to let him get continue with this. Even when you have a mental illness it does not mean you get away with bad behavior with no consquences.
What are appropriate consquences for Richards behavior? You can sit down with Misha and Laura and figure this out. Or you can ask them to go to a motel.
Hugs if you want 'em, dealing with crazy people in your home is very stressfull.
no subject
Date: 2002-07-15 03:13 pm (UTC)The following things are *not* Get out of Jail Free cards in human interaction... mental illness, guest status, family relationships.
His behavior is inappropriate. You know it, Laura knows it, your sweet dear Misha knows it, and so, on some level, does Richard.
I suggest: getting some time alone, either by Misha taking them out of an evening or Misha staying in with them while you flee for your sanity's sake. Take home some reports you have to work on, or pick up a craft project you need to have finished for some possibly manufactured deadline. Repeat after me, "I will be happy to talk to you after you have calmed down, but shouting is not acceptable in this house."
Or I could just put on my stompy boots and come rearrange him for you, you can't be held to blame for the crazy behavior of your firends, after all.
*hug* dear heart, it was a wonderful and too short weekend.
Barbara
off to the races
Date: 2002-07-15 08:01 pm (UTC)Oops. I mean...um. Hoo, boy.
Tough situation.
Is there any way to politely avoid talking about ideas with this fellow until some other visiting arrangement or minor medication confrontation can be worked out in the future? Or any reward for you that can make this tolerable for another week? Or...hmm. Would *another* houseguest help? Because it does just so happen that I'm passing through town this weekend and I'm flat broke and need a place to stay for a couple of days. :-> And, if necessary, my philandering boyfriend just went on a month-long vacation, and I've swiped his car.
Alternately, as I pass through town, I'd like you to come visit me at this place I'm staying in Monkey County. One of the people who lives there is going on a month-long vacation, and there's an extra "bed" (as it were), and computer access. And books. Though they aren't very good about the cat hair and spiderwebs.
Re: off to the races
Date: 2002-07-17 06:22 am (UTC)Oops. I mean...um. Hoo, boy.
*grin* Thanks, I needed that.
Is there any way to politely avoid talking about ideas with this fellow until some other visiting arrangement or minor medication confrontation can be worked out in the future? Or any reward for you that can make this tolerable for another week?
I'm going to try harder not to get sucked into debate. Part of that involved working out with Laura and Misha that this is, in fact, a special situation, and that I can exempt myself from the rules of hospitality which require you not to ignore your guests.
Or...hmm. Would *another* houseguest help? Because it does just so happen that I'm passing through town this weekend and I'm flat broke and need a place to stay for a couple of days. :->
Hee. I'd love to see you - it's been too long - but let's wait until we don't have company.
no subject
Date: 2002-07-15 11:40 pm (UTC)<IMO type="easy-for-me-to-say">
Hm.
Excessive amiability.
Shouting person in home: "I'm sorry, i don't allow people to shout at me in my home. Please go outside until you're ready to not shout at me."
delighted: "I was really bothered when Richard was shouting at me about politics, and don't feel comfortable spending much time around him."
</IMO>
no subject
Date: 2002-07-16 05:06 am (UTC)Alternate approaches:
Rivka (shouting): "I'm sorry, i don't allow people to shout at me in my home. Please go outside until you're ready to not shout at me."
Rivka (in delighted tones): "I was really delighted when Richard was shouting at me about politics, and I *don't feel comfortable spending much time around him."
*This was about where my brain got back into gear and I had to re-read the whole post.
no subject
Date: 2002-07-16 05:57 am (UTC)