Parenting etiquette question.

[rivka]

After story hour at the library, the librarian brings out a bunch of toys and the kids have free play. They're almost all of them under two years old (this is, officially, "story hour for non-walkers," although probably half the group can walk), so there's a fair amount of toy-grabbing that goes on. It's developmentally expected, but parents do tend to intervene if they're trying to work on sharing or if it seems like the robbed kid cares. (Often, at this age, they're just as happy to pick up something else.)

This morning, Alex got hold of a cool toy - a long clear plastic tube with a bunch of jingle bells inside. As she played with it intently, a 17-month-old grabbed it out of her hands. She started to cry.

The other kid's mother and I were both sitting less than two feet away. I waited a minute to see if she would respond, and then I said to the kid, in a friendly and conversational voice, "I think the baby was still playing with that toy. See, she looks sad. Can you give it back to her, please?" I put my hand on the toy and he relinquished it without any kind of struggle or negative reaction. (I wouldn't have taken it from him by force.) I gave it back to Alex, who immediately stopped crying, and the kid wandered off to play with something else.

But his mother seemed offended. "He's just a few months older than she is, you know," she said in an abrupt tone of voice. "He doesn't know not to take things."

"Oh, of course not," I said. "Alex takes other kids' toys all the time. Sometimes kids don't even mind, but if they're upset..."

"Is she your first?" she asked, in what seemed like a wow-are-you-inexperienced tone. I said that she was. She asked how old Alex was, and then said, "so he's... eight months older than she is." That was the end of our conversation. (So much for "only a few months older," anyway.)

My question is, was I wrong to speak directly to her kid about returning the toy? I would never discipline someone else's child, but this seemed more like saying for Alex what she's too young to say for herself. I just kind of expect that, in a group of very young kids, adults will step in to help negotiate social mishaps. I don't expect kids of that age to spontaneously refrain from taking toys from each other. But maybe she felt criticized as a parent? Should I have asked her to intervene, instead?

Comments

[ailbhe]

No. It is your duty as a parent (um, and I think as an adult in her presence, but hey, I'm villagecentric) to teach Alex what constitutes acceptable behaviour from her AND towards her, and if the other mother saw your intervention as a reprimand to her, which it sounds like she did, perhaps she'll have learned something from it.

Asking her to intervene would have left no doubt at all that you were reprimanding her, I think, and that would have been much more awkward.

I also guess that you heard more of the "W-A-Y-I" tone in her voice than she put there, because it is my observation that mothers are so self-critical that they assume everyone else is being critical of them in any non-overtly-positive interaction. But that's a guess and I know it is.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

It sounds to me like the other mother felt criticized, and that gave you an opening to let her know that you didn't mean it that way. I don't know if she realized that you didn't, but letting her know that is really all you could do.

-J

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

No, you weren't wrong, I think you handled it exactly right. That she got defensive probably meant she felt criticized, but that's not your problem. She should have intervened, and when she didn't, you did - gracefully and kindly.

[ratphooey.livejournal.com]

What klwalton said.

[marici.livejournal.com]

Eh, probably a no-win. In Japan you'd have been way out of line to have assumed authority over her baby, but in Japan she'd have been obligated to stop it herself. She did sound offended.

[llnaughty.livejournal.com]

what i've sometimes done in the past in similar situations is to deal with my child "hey, here's another toy to play." i'm fairly uncomfortable with strangers and try hard to avoid the potential conflict, but i've always wondered if i'm doing a disservice to my own child just to avoid conflict.

[erbie.livejournal.com]

Well if you are, I'm compensating for you. I'd have done exactly what Rivka did.

I'm so used to just doing that kind of stuff, I actually did something a while back that in retrospect, was probably not the wisest thing to do. We were at an outdoor mall and there were adoptable kitties in a cage. Lots of people were gathered around, including many small kids. I think Bob was about 2 at the time. The booth operator said several times not to let little fingers in the cage, the kitties may bite them, etc. I was squatting down with Bob, with my arms around her, holding her hands and talking to the kitties. Another kid around the same age was standing right next to us and her mom was standing up behind her and back a couple feet. Kid stuck her fingers in the cage. I gently reached for her hand and said, in that voice you talk to toddlers in, "Oh no sweetie, kitties might bite" and pulled her hand back a bit. Her mom gave me a dirty look. Oops!

But Rivka, I think you handled it perfectly. You're right that Alex is too young to be able to say those things, so it falls to you to model how things should be. And that's just what you did. You showed Alex how to be assertive and polite, and not to let others trample on her even though she's smaller. That's a very valuable lesson you gave her!

[richtermom.livejournal.com]

I think the cat thing was slightly more serious than the jinglebellstick thing... The toys exchange was more of a societal/values/personality thing, but sticking fingers into an animal's cage is more of a safety question. That mom sounds like she would have reamed you out for rumpling the kid's outfit if you tackled her away a speeding bus, too.

I'm not trying to downplay the original question -- it's not easy to balance adult niceties with helping our kids grow up responsibly and just protecting them in any case. As it is, I encourage/intervene to K to give the toys back if she's taking them from littler kids, and if she takes something from a bigger kid who doesn't try to get it back, I have thanked the bigger kid for being so patient and grown up -- and now, she's getting to the age where *she* says thank you herself.

[erbie.livejournal.com]

As it is, I encourage/intervene to K to give the toys back if she's taking them from littler kids, and if she takes something from a bigger kid who doesn't try to get it back, I have thanked the bigger kid for being so patient and grown up -- and now, she's getting to the age where *she* says thank you herself.

I do the same thing. My dd is 4 1/3, and has been known to take toys from smaller kids and even bigger kids. I never just let it go,e ven if the other parent says it's okay. It may be okay with them if a child takes a toy from theirs, but it's not okay with me if my child is the one doing it. It's part of my parenting philosophy to teach my child to be polite, and not to be a bully, even if the other kid doesn't seem bothered by it.

[beaq.livejournal.com]

Argle.

The only dodge I can think of many hours after the fact is something like "I'm terribly sorry -- Alex is so bad about grabbing things I have to do everything I can to make sure she understands it isn't polite."

I'm not sure how that kind of thing works once the kid understands you're talking about her, though.

Not speaking directly to other people's little kids in a mutual play environment seems odd to me. Especially if you waited a while for the mom to respond. Maybe it's a little more intimate than is normal in some circles, to interfere with other people's kids, but isn't playtime a little on the messy and not-quite-civilized end of things anyway?

[beaq.livejournal.com]

I use the word "interfere" advisedly. I think you did right.

[jmhm.livejournal.com]

Nope. You were absolutely right. You're out of line when you discipline someone else's child for no other reason than that they're behaving in a way you don't approve of. If they're behaving badly towards your child (and yes, they were, and no, they weren't really old enough to have a grasp of that, which is why they have a mother of their own, who wasn't doing her job) you have every right to gently point out that they have to stop.

There is this bizarre idea that some (less mature or with Issues) parents have that they're somehow doing their child a favor or lessening their own stress by not confronting inappropriate behavior.

Leaving aside the fact that they're not teaching their children what they need to know to get along with other children, and the fact that they're not setting the limits the kids need to feel secure, and the fact that they're going to pay dearly for both of those things in the future, you don't get to opt out of your parental responsibilities and then demand that other parents make allowances for it.

It sounds an awful lot to me like Snatchy Jr. is acting out mom's hostilities for her, but that's not your problem.

It's also not your problem if his mom doesn't like it when someone behaves like a responsible parent toward her child.

[tammylc.livejournal.com]

It sounds an awful lot to me like Snatchy Jr. is acting out mom's hostilities for her

It sounds an awful lot to me like Snatchy Jr. is being 17 months old. Parenting style has little to do with toy snatching behavior at that age - toddlers are utterly egocentric.

The other day I was talking to a mom whose little boy and Liam were tussling about a toy piano. The mom was demonstrating great parenting in how she dealt with the conflict, but related to me that her 2 1/2 year old was going through an extreme "MINE" phase. So extreme, in fact, that when they were walking down the sidewalk and some other children came into view, the little guy freaked out and starting yelling "MY sidewalk!"

Toddlers are not rational.

[jmhm.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, I'm not saying he's anything but perfectly normal. They're individuating at that age. They're allowed.

I'm saying that mom appears to think that it's behavior he should be allowed to engage in.

[mjlayman.livejournal.com]

It's not just toddlers. I'm the only grownup home most of the day in our part of the condo development and I frequently have to step out to mediate arguments between elementary-schoolers.

Rivka, IANAP, but I would have done something similar to what you did.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

I don't know from parenting, but I do know from polite, and it sounds to me as if you were perfectly polite.

I don't really get the whole hands-off-my-kid thing, to be honest; when I was little, every mother in the neighborhood felt free to intervene when she saw someone in the roving pack of kids misbehaving. The intervention was usually casual but firm, and we all learned early that we couldn't get away with stuff at our friends' houses that we couldn't get away with at home.

Heh. My geezerhood is showing, isn't it?

[ororo.livejournal.com]

I don't know from parenting, but I do know from polite, and it sounds to me as if you were perfectly polite.

What you said.

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

I don't really get the whole hands-off-my-kid thing, to be honest; when I was little, every mother in the neighborhood felt free to intervene when she saw someone in the roving pack of kids misbehaving. The intervention was usually casual but firm, and we all learned early that we couldn't get away with stuff at our friends' houses that we couldn't get away with at home.

Yes!! My god, I had, like, 15 mothers when I was growing up and never, ever, got away with anything. And you know something? That was an amazingly secure feeling.

We've lived on this court for over 18 years, now, and I get visits from adults who were kids when we moved in, and I treated them exactly as I treated my own, and they now treat me as one of their mothers. It's pretty wonderful :).

Heh. My geezerhood is showing, isn't it?

No more than mine is :):):).

[kightp.livejournal.com]

It wasn't just true for those who lived in the same neighborhood for years, either. I grew up on Air Force bases; we were never in one place more than a couple of years, and it's not that the mothers all knew each other that well, it's just the way things were.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

I think for me that depends upon which community I'm dealing with, and which child. Pretty much anyone I *know* can chastise my eldest and youngest, and I'm more or less okay with it, but my middle child needs special handling. Most of our friends realize that, but not all, which can pose problems. Occasionally, someone will try to run herd on him without getting me or my husband first and that can have less than ideal results.

[ailbhe]

Making me a 27-year-old geezer. It is absolutely automatic for me to care for random children I see, um, anywhere. Because growing up (pre=teen), almost all the adults I encountered would stop children hitting each other, stealing each others' toys, whatever.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Well, I'd say two things about that:

(1) That level of community intervention is dependent on there being a high level of community agreement about how children should behave and how they should be disciplined. That's nothing you can rely on in a more diverse society. Should kids be reprimanded for a potty accident? For eating candy? For playing with "wrong-gender" toys? For showing off? For excluding another kid from their games? For swearing? I know my answers, but I'm pretty sure that not every parent on my block has the same set of answers.

(2) Philosophically, I don't think that Alex should have to obey any adult simply by virtue of that person's adulthood. Every adult does not have command authority over every child. That's not to say that she doesn't have to obey anyone but her parents - the librarian has authority at the library, the teachers have authority at school, her friends' parents have authority at their houses or when they are taking Alex on an outing.

But if J. Random Neighbor tells her that she shouldn't eat candy because it will rot her teeth, or that she needs to pick up someone else's trash on the sidewalk because "you kids are making a mess of the whole neighborhood, or that children should let adults get served first in a store, then Alex is as free to disregard J. Random Neighbor's opinion as I am.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I get your points. As I remember it, the Moms Brigade interventions were limited to keeping us from damaging each other (breaking up fights) and ourselves (stopping us from running into the street, jumping off garage roofs and similar acts of recklessness. Lesser "misdeeds" might get a "do you want me to tell your mother?"

But you're right - it was a different time and a different place, and there was a pretty high level of agreement on how we should behave.

[journeywoman.livejournal.com]

then Alex is as free to disregard J. Random Neighbor's opinion as I am.

I think it would be difficult to teach judgment like that to a young child, though my eventual goal for Evan is for him to have that kind of judgment. How do you teach a kid which adults to blow off and which ones to obey? Maybe they do develop a sense early of which neighbors are crazy and should be avoided--we didn't have any nosy meddlesome types in the neighborhood where I grew up, and offhand I can't recall how I reacted when I did come across people like that as a kid.

As a tangent, I watched Mystic River and got paranoid about the response to adult authority thing (a boy gets abducted by men posing as police officers). While it is important to me that Evan grow up being respectful to adults (I find kids who talk back to adults extremely annoying), he must also learn a proper wariness of strangers.

[erbie.livejournal.com]

There's a great book that addresses a lot of these issues. Protecting the Gift: Keeping Kids Safe and Parents Sane by Gavin de Becker. He's a security consultant who consults with celebrities and government agencies. There's so much in this book that just makes sense. He addresses all the questions in your post. He even talks about questions to ask your child's school. I *highly* recommend it to every parent. (Be warned though, there are very real examples in there, and it's uncomfortable to read in parts. But I think the bluntness and real-life examples are really necessary.)

[journeywoman.livejournal.com]

That sounds like just what I'm looking for. Thanks!

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

You did fine. It might not be seen that way by many, but there is a lot about the american model of parenting which I think is fatheaded and wrong, not the least of which is the pre-supposed proproety of total autononmy for a parent; the right to screw a kid up any way they please.

He reaction (is this your first) was both defensive, and rude. The level of experience you have with kids is immaterial to the rightness, or not, of how you responded (and from your description you did a fine job, invoking a sense of empathy, treating the child as capable of making a reasoned decision, and accepting that at that age forethought and sense of others isn't present all the time).

Her misapprehension about the difference in appreciation/understanding is also huge. At that age a couple of months makes a huge difference. It's a ratio problem, and a couple of months (never mind eight) is a huge experiential gap, and for her to use that as if it were the difference between 29 years and 30, well it shows a shallow understanding of development, or a very defensive sense of things.

And asking her to intervine is (IMO) less than ideal, because if she doesn't, then you can't, not really.

Keep up the good work.

TK

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

I'm betting she would have been equally huffy if you asked her to retrieve the toy.

When somebody else's kid distresses your kid, it's appropriate to politely rectify the situation. You didn't try to punish; you simply took the toy back, explaining why.

It's one of those "my kid is perfect" things you run into.

Speaking as a mother of two, by the way, I don't expect babies not to be selfish, but I do expect parents to do what they can to enforce civilization. I have been the parent of the biter and of the bitee, and so have sympathies for both sides.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

I think you did fine. It's appropriate to stand up for your kid. I don't think I did a very good job of things like that when I was younger -- I might well have tried to talk mine into getting another toy, but then I'm very conflict averse.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

In a group like that, I think it was perfectly good manners. She might have felt criticized, but Alex also needs you to stand up for her when she can't do it herself.

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

I think you handled it perfectly.

I don't know what happened with that other woman. Maybe she was embarrassed that *she* could have fixed things so easily; maybe she felt that your fixing things was a rebuff to her baby or that your putting things right somehow suggested that her child had done something *bad* rather than baby-level-clueless.

But I do know that sometimes people, when presented with honest, forthright wisdom, are sometimes taken off guard looking for the catch. "I know there's something wrong here... I just don't know what."

By the way, I remember you once speaking admiringly of your mother's ability to handle such tricky parenting situations... I have a feeling she'd be proud of the way you handled this.

[porcinea.livejournal.com]

It's a chorus, but I'm joining it anyway, 'cause I have on-the-ground experience with other moms right now. Speaking from how things work in the NYC play areas, you did exactly the right thing. The other mom clearly felt criticized, but that's, honestly, her problem. She probably felt a little obscurely guilty for not doing her job properly, and so was taking it out on you. Or something like that.

Teaching sharing and fair play is tricky; we're interacting with other children and other caregivers, with multiple levels of appropriate behavior (like whether you apologize to the kid or to the mom when your kid does something wrong). No one handles it exactly the same way at our venues, but there is a clear sense that we're all struggling with it, and trying to do The Right Thing, even when we're not quite sure what that is.

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

I think you did the right thing. The problem seems to me to be in the group attitude that parents only intervene if a child seems to be upset or if they happen to be working on sharing at the time - really, every parent should intervene every time their child snatches, because otherwise the inconsistency will confuse the children. There is no such thing as "too young" for that kind of discipline, IMO.

[tammylc.livejournal.com]

There is an age (around 7-9 months I think) when the vast majority of kids really just don't care when their toy gets snatched. I think it's a pre-object permanence thing. And if all the kids are that age, it really doesn't make sense to take the toy back from the snatcher when the snatchee has already moved on, and attempts to do end up resulting in more global unhappiness, not less.

But when it's an older child/younger child interaction, it always gets more complicated.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Alex and her same-age friend Zoe happily take toys back and forth from each other, and neither one of them mind. Emily (Zoe's mom) and I pretend that they're good at sharing, but in reality we know that they just haven't reached the selfish age yet.

[elisem.livejournal.com]

Me geezer, you good parent.

[txanne.livejournal.com]

What everybody else said. You did the right thing.

[beckyzoole.livejournal.com]

I'm going to join in the general chorus of "You done good!"

I do want to point out that the other mother seemed to react to your choice of words, "I think the baby was still playing with that toy". She sees her 17-month old as a baby too. (And, really, in spite of his ability to walk, he is still very much a baby.) Her initial defensiveness seemed to be geared to this. ("He's just a few months older than she is", etc.) A common complaint of parents is that their child, because s/he is big for his/her age, is expected to behave as if s/her were older. This is a legitimate concern, and she might be in that mind-set if this is a problem she has with an older chid of hers.

So, bottom line: Yes, she's right, he WAS behaving in an age-appropriate manner. BUT he still needs to learn that this age-appropriate behavior is not what we want him to continue to do. And your intervention was absolutely appropriate.

[treacle-well.livejournal.com]

I think you did good. Was it clear to the other parent that you her child relinquished the toy and that you didn't actually take it by force?

I can kind of understand her not liking it if you had, but it also seems to me that appropriate etiquette on her part would have been to do what you did--and that since she didn't, it was perfectly appropriate for you to do so.

just wondering

[(Anonymous)]

I think you were FINE in this scenario, and I am not being judgemental. But, just because it is so good to consider the other side:

Would you be able to be gracious, and accepting, if a library group parent decided that Alex was out of line with toy grabbing?(and you had been closely observing the interaction, and were aware of Alex's mood and developmental level, and had decided that Alex's behavior was normal, and no intervention was necessary?)

When the imaginary parent above thought otherwise, and stepped in to correct things on her own child's behalf, would you accept that, or feel defensive and want to share your own view of Alex and your own parenting choices that kept you from intervening?

[dragon3.livejournal.com]

You had a polite interaction with the kid, made a reasonable request, and got a positive response. What could be a better interaction to help a child learn social skills?

[(Anonymous)]

I think the other mother was being a total bitch. And no, a 17-month-old can't be expected to know that.

But you showed her up. You had exactly the conversation with her child that she SHOULD have had. So naturally she felt put down. She deserved to.

[xopher-vh.livejournal.com]

Oops, that was me. "I think the other mother..."