I am the biggest bitch in the world.

[rivka]

Rivka: Good morning.
Health Club Clerk: Oh, good for you, you made it in.
Rivka: [silently wonders why this is news]
Health Club Clerk: [takes membership card to scan] I have a friend, she's got multiple sclerosis, and she blah blah blah.
Rivka: Why are you telling me this?
Health Club Clerk: [says more things about her friend with multiple sclerosis]
Rivka: [slightly louder] Why are you telling me this?
Health Club Clerk: Well... what do you have?
Rivka: That's a personal question. That's none of your business.
Health Club Clerk: Oh. But I just...
Rivka: [firmly] It's a very rude question. [walks away]
Health Club Clerk: [calling after her] I'm sorry! I didn't mean to hurt your feelings!
Rivka: [calling back] You didn't "hurt my feelings," you made me angry.
Health Club Clerk: Ma'am, ma'am, please come here. Please accept my apology.
Rivka: [alarmed] Okay, just... okay, don't cry.
Health Club Clerk: [crying] I am going to cry. I've had a really bad day, and...
Rivka: Look, I'm sorry you've had a bad day, but...
Health Club Clerk: Please, please say you accept my apology.
Rivka: Fine. I accept your apology. Okay.

Sheesh.

Comments

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about how to handle various situations, and I suspect that some of the many other disabled people on my Friends list would probably be willing to weigh in as well.

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

So you're the person at the gym. You have a friend who has MS, so you know how difficult it can be for someone with disabilities to work out. There's this woman who comes in whom you admire for her persistence, and who you are seeing more clearly because of a talk you just had with your friend. And she's cute to boot. You want to tell her how you admire her. What do you say when she comes in? Do you never tell her that you admire her overcoming her obstacles, because there is no way to do that without acknowledging that it is harder for her to work out than it is for others? Is it inappropriate of you to be impressed?

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

it may or may not be inappropriate for you to be impressed.

i think the thing to do in that situation is acknowledge that. you'll still get a wide variety of reactions, if you choose to say anything, but it is my feeling that they will be a titch less negative.

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

I think people unfamiliar or uncomfortable with disability can begin to feel like the safest thing to do, in order not to offend, is ignore a disabled person or at very least ignore their disability. I can't imagine being ignored is less infuriating than an awkward but well-meaning reaching out. But then again, I have no perspective from the other side.

big spammy opinion

[perigee.livejournal.com]

In my opinion as an invisibly "disabled" person (I have chronic, severe asthma which is under control except in extreme circumstances/bad air quality), well-meaning reaching out can be extremely irritating, and mostly it has to do with how well self-educated the well-meaner is.

This is related for me to the issue of the needy guilty liberal. I use this stereotype because I've spent a lot of time with needy guilty liberals in the church of Unitarian Universalism (of which I am a member). The type of person I'm talking about here is a progressive who is looking for a cause and looking for common cause, but who doesn't have enough clue to self-educate about a political/social issue. Such a person will generally just find a native representative of whatever the cause du jour is (i.e. me if they're currently progressing about asthma, transgender causes, intersex issues, Asian-American issues, or whatever other pigeon hole I fit in in their eyes).

The reason this approach is problematic for me is that instead of being polite and policing my boundaries on their own, including the one where they rudely ask me to educate them on my issues (when they could just as well do some fundamental research on their own first), they make me police my boundaries and they just wander around like a pinball running into all my and my friends boundary-bumpers before learning how to just be in my company, be supportive and be polite/respectful.

Also, there's another aspect with respect to my medical issue in particular (I don't have the personal experience to say it applies to everyone I know who's got physical ability issues): Sometimes the well-meaning reacher-outer prioritizes their comfort over my own when they are reaching out, or newly reached out. What do I mean by this? For example: I choke on some water or other liquid through the normal 'going down the wrong tube' way that everyone gets at one time or another. In my case, it usually leads to an extended coughing/gasping routine, followed up by wheezing and a full-blown asthma attack. The well-meaning reacher-outer invariably totally freaks out, goes into call-an-ambulance mode, or worse, insists that while I am choking/gasping, I articulate that I'm okay, which I'm not -- it hurts, but they want me to stop them from calling an ambulance. This is usually worst when it's within the first 2 weeks of having been reached out to by any particular individual.

What I would usually prefer is a quick and calm determination that, oh yeah, e is coughing/gasping, and is not blue-looking, so e can probably breathe if not well, at least somewhat, so maybe if I just sit calmly and let em get through it, e can articulate at a more comfortable time for em that it's okay.

Re: big spammy opinion

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

That's a very useful perspective -- thank you.

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

This started as a kind-of thinking answer, turned into a ramble, and then maybe turned into babble. I suppose that's never really stopped me from speaking up before, but be warned...

Well... I think one thing that's important to recognize is that *NO ONE* sees the inside of the other person's skull.

I'm sure that the person didn't mean to be offensive. She's not an evil, cruel, heartless person.

But, it's a crazy situation.

Rivka did nothing wrong. She had a perfectly normal, perfectly human, response to an unpleasant situation. She didn't deserve to have to deal with another person's emotional breakdown. She didn't cause it; it wasn't her fault.

(And, Rivka, if you feel that it was, it's natural. If a person does something that hurts another, the 'doer' will probbably feel at fault, whether it's gently touching horribly sunburned skin, or having a perfectly justified annoyance reaction to someone. But, it wasn't your fault.)

The clerk didn't *intend* to do anything wrong, but, sooner or later, the clerk has to learn that there are some things that cross the line. It would have been much, much happier a world if someone could have tapped her on the shoulder at that moment, given a quick shushing motion, giving Rivka a clear escape route, and then talked to the clerk until she understood what she was doing wrong.

Herm. It's really pretty normal for folks to talk about how terrible the clerk is, to try to emphasize that it's not Rivka who did anything wrong, and it can look like these people are demonizing the clerk.

I hope they're not... but even if they are, well... it's a tricky situation. Try to defend the clerk too much, and you can start making it look like Rivka over-reacted to the clerk who was, after all, probably just flustered.

And yeah, the clerk *was* probably just flustered, probably not a bit of mean in her. But she was still being annoying, still caused annoyance (however inadvertantly), and it wasn't Rivka's problem to deal with, and she *didn't* over-react.

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

I can see and agree. I guess what I keep thinking about is a friend's experience. (Since I don't really have any of my own.) He had muscular dystrophy, was wheel-chair bound and couldn't raise his hand to his face. He was also a very bright English major in my college. We took some classes together, and I usually sat next to him to help him out. One of my teachers obviously didn't know how to handle any disability, never mind one that he felt was as gross as needing someone else to help you blow your nose. So for the entire class, in fear of offending my friend I guess, and possibly just in fear of my friend, my teacher ignored him. The entire semester. Never even looked at him. He once commented in a sort of awe about how I managed to help my friend without being totally weirded out.

Obviously, my professor had a greater responsibility to my friend than the towel attendant did to Rivka. And there is a difference between not prying into someone's disability, and ignoring someone because they have a disability.

So I have great sympathy with Rivka's annoyance with the attendant, but I also have sympathy with the attendant. And I'm afraid that if people keep hearing about how they should never say X, Y or Z to a disabled person for fear of being rude, well, they'll never say anything to a disabled person for fear of being rude.

Re: JMO here, a little less grumpy I hope

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

[nods]

my particular disability is invisible, so i don't get too much of that sort of thing. (i end up much more often yelling things like "slow down! pretend you're short and crippled" at people in the street who i am supposed to be walking with... :)

i agree, it's pretty much always going to be over-reaching. but if a person acknowledges that they might be stepping on my toes, i will probably take it better.

i try to ask "is it okay if i ask [whatever]" and then they can say yes or no or i'm not comfortable discussing that.

Re: JMO here, a little less grumpy I hope

[rivka.livejournal.com]

my particular disability is invisible, so i don't get too much of that sort of thing. (i end up much more often yelling things like "slow down! pretend you're short and crippled" at people in the street who i am supposed to be walking with... :)

One of the first things that attracted me about a former boyfriend was that I never had to ask him to slow down - he paid attention to how fast I walked, and adjusted.

But yeah. I once had someone I knew from a class - which meant someone who had seen me on crutches the entire previous semester - chide me for not going fast enough on the treadmill at the gym. I was walking slowly, trying to get my gait straightened out in the first few weeks that I was mobility-aid-free after my hip replacement. I dunno, she thought I should've been jogging.

Re: JMO here, a little less grumpy I hope

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

I definitely appreciate your distinction.

Just out of curiosity, is it ever appropriate for me to accomodate or notice someone's disability if they don't bring it up first? Like on the Subway, if someone comes in limping or with a visible mobility problem, and I'm sitting in the "give up this seat if someone comes in needing it" spot, should I wait for them to tell me they would like it, or automatically relinquish it? Are there any other circumstances where I should proactively accomodate disability? Or should I always reactively accomodate it?

Re: JMO here, a little less grumpy I hope

[perigee.livejournal.com]

I don't know what others will say, but I always follow the posted rules, and I try to be proactive (when I notice). But I also try not to be offended if the person I offer the seat to turns it down.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I'm going to take your questions back-to-front, because I think my answers will flow more easily that way.

Is it inappropriate of you to be impressed?

It may or may not be. It's generally inappropriate to assume that, just by existing or doing ordinary activities, a random disabled person has done something impressive - because that depends on the assumption that disabled people normally are helpless, homebound, et cetera. It's as if I said, "It's impressive that you, as a woman, have been able to hold a job in a technical field." You might or might not find that personally irksome, but either way, you can probably see how some techie women would be offended.

Many - but not all - disabled people will feel annoyed if you're all impressed about some aspect of their normal, everyday life. So if you know someone well enough to know what their normal life is like, you're in a much safer position in terms of commenting on something that actually is impressive for that person. Like, "Wow, Rivka, a five-mile hike? That's quite an accomplishment!" versus "Wow, Rivka, you actually manage to work full-time? I'm really impressed."

What do you say when she comes in? Do you never tell her that you admire her overcoming her obstacles, because there is no way to do that without acknowledging that it is harder for her to work out than it is for others?

See, here's the thing. We're talking about me, right? And it's not, in fact, harder for me to complete my exercise program than it is for other people to complete their exercise programs. My program may be different, but it's not harder.

I've got a well-chosen workout routine - weights, exercise bike/elliptical trainer, water aerobics - that improves my physical conditioning without exacerbating my disability. I don't get my heart rate up any higher than you do when you exercise, and I'm probably not any more tired or sore afterwards. Regular exercise improves my mobility, just as it does for nondisabled people. So it would, in fact, be an incorrect assumption to think that I'm "overcoming obstacles" by exercising.

How are you, the hypothetical person at the gym, supposed to know that? You're not - you're just not supposed to assume. If you have some compelling reason for wanting to know (for example, a disabled friend you'd like to encourage to exercise), you can ask, for example:

"Would you mind answering a question or two about your workout routine? ...I'm asking because my friend has MS, and I've been trying to encourage her to go to the gym. Did you find that it was hard to get your workout routine going? Do you have to adapt your program at all? ...How did you know how to do that?" ...but you'd have to be prepared to back off at any point, if the person you're talking to doesn't seem interested in being a disability spokesmodel that day.

Continued in next comment.

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

You're absolutely right. You should have seen my reaction when my High School guidance counsellor wrote in my college recommendation letter that I was remarkable because as a girl I had excelled at trumpet and done well at math.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Oh my God. Did you let him live?

[rivka.livejournal.com]

What do you say when she comes in?

"Good morning, isn't it a lovely day today? Here's your towel." Essentially, you stifle your curiosity about her obvious disability because it's not appropriate to your clerk-customer role.

Suppose that this person isn't a complete stranger, and your role doesn't automatically preclude the asking of personal questions? I'm going to give some examples of when it's okay to talk/ask about disability.

When you are close enough to the person that you would ask other personal questions:
fairoriana: Did your previous marriage end badly? Are you pregnant? What are those scars from?

When you are friends or at least reasonably well-acquainted and the other person brings it up or alludes to it:
rivka: Man, this rain makes my joints ache.
fairoriana: Oh, do you have arthritis?

rivka: I can't fasten this kind of necklace because of my arm.
fairoriana: What's up with your arm, anyway?

When you have some compelling reason to know:
fairoriana: We're having a party Saturday night, and we'd like you to come, but do you have any problem with stairs? We're on the second floor.

rivka: Oooh, swing dancing! Wanna dance?
fairoriana: I'd love to. Is there any way I could hurt your arm if I twirl you?

When you wonder if a disabled person needs help doing something, ask about the help, not the disability:

fairoriana: Would you like to sit down? Can I give you a hand with that? Would you rather take the elevator?

(Note that you should take "no" for an answer in all of these cases, and that you should always ask before supplying help.)

I hope this helps.

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

That does help -- thank you. Those are good guidelines.

[wild-irises.livejournal.com]

Once again, there is always Raphael Carter's rule, which applies in so, so, so many situations.

"When is it appropriate to ask an intersexual about the configuration of zir genitals?"

"In the same situations that it is appropriate to ask a man about his penis size."

In other words, not bloody many. Rivka, I love your detailed list of when one can ask and how. At the same time, anyone not willing to study and memorize such a detailed list (self-educate) is best advised to go with the simple: when in doubt, don't ask, don't comment, and don't offer help.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Rivka, I love your detailed list of when one can ask and how. At the same time, anyone not willing to study and memorize such a detailed list (self-educate) is best advised to go with the simple: when in doubt, don't ask, don't comment, and don't offer help.

I trust fairoriana to be willing to think carefully and learn from feedback. Another person might've gotten a different response from me.

I would say "don't help," not "don't offer help." As long as people are willing to wait for a response before jumping in, I think that offering help is generally acceptable.

Offering help to the disabled

[wiredferret.livejournal.com]

I find this especially interesting, because although we don't think about it much that way, we grew up with someone who has a disability.

Our dad is pretty firm about not self-defining as disabled, but he is. He has always done poorly at standing. He can't really jump, or stand on one leg. In my memory, he has spent significant time on crutches.

But because it's a mostly-invisible disability, he manages to deflect all inquiries. Still, both of us know how to help a person larger than us out of a chair, and do it automatically. We evaluate walking surfaces at a subconscious level. Just a dozen little coping things that never really got explained, or talked about.

[janetmiles.livejournal.com]

May I also take advantage of this offer?

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Yes, absolutely.

[janetmiles.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

So, then, at the con this weekend, while in line for the Masquerade, I chatted with a woman who uses a cane and mentioned her knee replacement, and that she could only walk or stand for so long at a time, and that she was a bit irritated that the hotel was not particularly accessible.

Much later that evening, she came in to a panel that was quite full and stood up against the wall. Since I was near her, I asked if she wanted to sit down (I think my exact phrase was, "May I offer you my seat?"). She answered, "Oh no, I need to stand up now."

In your opinion (and that of anyone else who feels like commenting) was I out of line? Or should I just assume she meant it literally and was more comfortable standing than sitting at that moment?

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I think your manners in this scenario were perfectly correct.

Speaking as someone who also has an artificial joint, I think it is in fact plausible that she really did need to sit down at one point, and stand at another. That's how having an artificial hip has differed from the just-plain-arthritis preceding it - instead of needing to rest all the time, I now need to maintain an arcane mix of rest and movement. Otherwise, my joints get stiff.