Grr.

[rivka]

rivka:
> > Did you intend to insult me with the "Piled Higher
> > and Deeper" part, or did you not realize that it
> > refers to *shit* being piled higher and deeper?

Someone else, not the original poster:
> Of course; it's a geometric progression (or worse):
>
> BSc -- Bullshit certificate
> MSc -- More shit certificate
> PhD -- Piled higher and deeper.
>
> Felicitations and salutations -- nobody will ever know
> what agonies you went through for that worthless piece
> of paper but you. Treasure those happy memories for they
> will sustain you in the trials to come.
>
> I'm not good at this sort of thing, as you may have surmised.

rivka:
If you were aiming at taking me down a peg, undercutting
my pleasant sense of accomplishment, or devaluing eight
years' worth of hard work, you're on the right track. If
that's not what you meant to be doing, well, maybe next
time you should stick to "felicitations" and leave it at
that.

I know I'm supposed to take this as all in good fun, but
I've spent eight years of my life working very hard,
earning very little, forgoing many pleasures, and postponing
other significant life goals. I don't know what prompts you
to tell me that my degree is worthless and my work is a
shitpile, but forgive me if I don't really have a sense
of humor about it.

---

Okay, I feel as though I've completely lost my shit here - or at least, my sense of perspective. But these comments just feel hostile to me. I'm sure he thinks he's just teasing and I know I'm supposed to be a good sport about it. And maybe if I weren't still so tired from the whole ordeal I would be a good sport about it. Or if it was someone I knew so well that their supportiveness could be taken for granted, and we had a pre-existing teasing relationship. In the absence of those factors, I feel as though I'm being told not to get above myself.

Comments

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

In the absence of those factors, I feel as though I'm being told not to get above myself.

you are.

i'm just guessing here, but i'm betting none of those people have phd's, and probably aren't closely related (blood or otherwise) to someone who has one.

if you make a photo list for her majesty, i'm certain she'll go out and chew on their ankles for you. (of course, getting ankle height photos of people might be a problem...)

[kiya]

Well, they look hostile to me, too, for what that's worth . . .

[kightp.livejournal.com]

Bleah.

It sounds to me like a case of sour grapes from someone who either hasn't Been There and Done That - or has, and subsequently failed to "live up to their potential" (as my old grade-school teachers would have said).

Either way, it's rude of them to rain on your parade.

(I and my humble little BA, on the other hand, admire the hell out of you for your tenacity and hard work.)

[ailbhe]

You _are_ being told not to get above yourself. That seems quite plain to me. I'd drop him.

The only mitigating factor is that people without similar qualifications are also told that they (the people) are worthless, though in that case it's because they have no qualifications, rather than because they've devoted their careers to earning "worthless bits of paper". It's a pretty small factor, though. It boils down to defensiveness and petty revenge, and the revenge isn't even directed at the people who wronged them.

I think that it's great that you got your PhD, and I have an inkling of the kind of work that goes into them, and I have no paper qualifications at all, not even school-leaving ones. But then, I know that you won't assume I'm stupid or worthless because I have no qualifications, which helps me to feel pleased for you instead of resentful of you.

I will now stop, as I am making increasingly less sense.

[wiredferret.livejournal.com]

How wude!

Yeah, I will sometimes talk about my doubts about the actual learning-percentage of undergrad work, but you have contributed to the knowledge of the world. How cool is that?

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

My suspicion, since he's quoting a common witticism, is that you ARE taking it a little too hard.

On the other hand, you did a hell of a good job getting your PhD, and that is no small thing. Most of us won't ever get anywhere near doing so.

No teasing is ever going to take that accomplishment away from you. You did it and you should be justly proud of having done so.

[saoba.livejournal.com]

My suspicion, since he's quoting a common witticism, is that you ARE taking it a little too hard.

Many 'common witticisms' are petty mean-spirited put-downs. They depend on denigrating the target to get a cheap laugh. And they are frequently excused with some variation of that old bully's line of 'I was only JOKING!'.


On the other hand, you did a hell of a good job getting your PhD, and that is no small thing. Most of us won't ever get anywhere near doing so.

No teasing is ever going to take that accomplishment away from you. You did it and you should be justly proud of having done so.

Trouble is, you see, that this kind of put-down is supposed to sap her pride and rob her of her justifiable joy at having achieved her goal.

What's wrong with simply saying congratulations, anyway? She worked hard and she contributed to the overall knowledge of the human race in a verifiable way. All this common witticism does is make light of her accomplishment and take a little bit of joy out of the world.

I'm not ragging on you, so much as on the attitude behind the kind of remarks Rivka had to deal with as described above.

[melebeth]

You worked your ass off, baby, and don't let anyone tell you differently. Getting a doctorate is incredibly hard work and you should enjoy it.

That having been said, I frequently denirate MY Ph.D. (not other people's) because I hate people saying "You have a Ph.D. you must be so brilliant" when what I feel like having my Ph.D. shows is that I'm tenacious and incapable of giving up even when things get rediculous... not that it signifies any particular brilliance on my part. This is partially because I feel like I got my Ph.D. by default - it's not something I worked for with great love like you did. It's something I was raised to get when I would rather have been doing theater.

But there's also this, a certain PhD in our mutual acquaintance circle has driven many people crazy wanting to be called Dr.X. in situations not even remotely related to hir field. This would be cute, normal, and expected from a newly minted PhD, but is a behaviour that you do eventually expect a person to get over. I don't know whose being a PITA at you, but it may be somewhat from frustration.

But anyway, Dr. Rivka, I think you rock. Tell your detractors to go to hell, and then pummel them with your framed diploma.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Now I'm dying to know who Dr. X is. E-mail me?

Done there, been that, worn out the t-shirt....

[akicif.livejournal.com]

It's a tricky one. The "bullshit, more shit, piled higher and deeper" thing's a very common expression over here (in spite of the fact that most PhDs here miss out on the MSc) - new post-docs in a department will quite happily ask each other just what they piled higher and deeper, for example. There's also the "knowing more and more about less and less" line, which has always struck me as being a politer (on the surface) way of saying the same thing.

Oh, and there's the suggestion that having been through the mills of the dissertation and viva has a sort of case-hardening effect (although who the hot sword is, and who is the enemy prisoner, seems to have been garbled in translation).

But, the people who make these comments have probably forgotten the period of battle-fatigue, if not outright shell-shock, that slams down on the newly-minted PhD: I've lost count of the number of colleagues and co-workers I've had who had planned (often in incredible detail) post-viva/post-result parties, but who simply didn't have it in them to carry out the plan when it came to the point of actually going to the pub.

I'm seeing that side of things from close up at the moment, because tigermoth has just handed in her dissertation for an MSc in Quality and Business Excellence, and far from feeling like hitting the pub, she's drained and empty.

Re: Done there, been that, worn out the t-shirt....

[rivka.livejournal.com]

The "bullshit, more shit, piled higher and deeper" thing's a very common expression over here (in spite of the fact that most PhDs here miss out on the MSc) - new post-docs in a department will quite happily ask each other just what they piled higher and deeper, for example.

I think I would take it differently, actually, if it came from a new post-doc - or anyone else committed to the same path. In that case it would feel like shared irony, much like the way some of my disabled friends and I use "gimp" or "cripple" among ourselves. It feels very different coming from someone who is not, as far as I know, an academic.

the people who make these comments have probably forgotten the period of battle-fatigue, if not outright shell-shock, that slams down on the newly-minted PhD

This is a good point. I'm sure that I would feel less hurt and angry if a little more time had passed since my defense. "Battle fatigue" is a good term for it.

I've lost count of the number of colleagues and co-workers I've had who had planned (often in incredible detail) post-viva/post-result parties, but who simply didn't have it in them to carry out the plan when it came to the point of actually going to the pub.

I definitely wasn't up for a raucous pub crawl - not that I have many friends left in Iowa City. My advisor took us out for a sedate but excellent dinner, and I drank half a bottle of wine. Then I slept for eleven hours straight.

Congratulations to tigermoth!

[jilesa.livejournal.com]

Sheesh. I don't think you're losing your sense of perspective. Whether or not he *means* this to be friendly teasing or not, it's positively rude.

I'm reminded of my college graduation, when my father's reaction to a compliment from my favorite professor about my academic ability was, "Well, she cost us enough money and didn't even get a man. I'm glad she did *something* right." He said it in a 'joking' tone of voice, but it felt just as hostile to me then as this seems to feel for you now, and with good reason.

It's not wrong to be proud of your accomplishments, and it's not wrong to be annoyed/angry/upset/whatever by having someone belittle those accomplishments. And this person IS belittling them (and deserves a swift kick in the ass, IMO.) I hope he gets a clue eventually.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Someone is acting the senseless jerk here. But then, there are a lot of senseless jerks in the world.

[porcinea.livejournal.com]

Alas, if they hadn't said "worthless piece of paper", it might be defensible. As it is...

(The defensible grounds, for the curious: I only accept this progression from someone else who's been through it, and who understands how hellish it was. I.e, my father could say this (especially as a professor himself), to describe the multiple kinds of shit you are put through in academia. Never, ever, is it acceptable to describe someone's work or accomplishments this way; only the obstacles in one's path, like academic politics.)

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I only accept this progression from someone else who's been through it, and who understands how hellish it was.

Yeah, that's where I would accept it too.

And the part about the degree being worthless does absolutely, no question, take it over the line.

Thanks.

[porcinea.livejournal.com]

Alas, if they hadn't said "worthless piece of paper", it might be defensible. As it is...

(The defensible grounds, for the curious: I only accept this progression from someone else who's been through it, and who understands how hellish it was. I.e, my father could say this (especially as a professor himself), to describe the multiple kinds of shit you are put through in academia. Never, ever, is it acceptable to describe someone's work or accomplishments this way; only the obstacles in one's path, like academic politics.)

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

I think that the first person might have meant it as a joke, but the one referring to it as a worthless piece of paper wants you to know that you're not "all that," and couldn't give a shit how much work you've done, or how valuable that work is to the world.

They are cordially invited to fuck off, by my lights.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I think that the first person might have meant it as a joke,

I agree, especially given that he backed away from it immediately after my initial response.

the one referring to it as a worthless piece of paper wants you to know that you're not "all that," and couldn't give a shit how much work you've done, or how valuable that work is to the world.

Boy, when you put it that way, what the hell is the matter with me that I didn't find it funny?

Thanks.

[dandelion-diva.livejournal.com]

Sounds like this is from the Jealous School of Humor. Or, perhaps a better title would be the Sour Grapes School of Humor (Same difference, I'm just partial to foxes.) And I have a feeling that "Hey, it was just a joke..." is going to be put into play here as well.

In other words...jerks.

I don't think you're overreacting at all. And I hope the people in question either shut up and leave you alone or get a clue.

Both would be good.:)

Gessi

[ororo.livejournal.com]

I think the attitude of "all in good fun," is best saved for things that are actually funny.

They're out of line, pure and simple. You don't have a pre-existing relationship where certain kinds of teasing is acceptable. You aren't over-reacting, they're still walking around.

Aren't they?

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

I would never presume to mock anyone with a Ph.D. They have worked too hard to get that "piece of paper".

People with J.D.s on the other hand..... :-) *


*before anyone yells at me, I have a J.D., with Distinction, from Stanford Law School. Besides, I'm joking... really....

[redbird]

You have not lost your shit. The idiot who realized they're no good at this before hitting "post", but didn't have the sense Goddess gave a fig newton, and therefore went ahead and posted that rudeness, has lost theirs, if they ever had it together in the first place.

[snippy]

To me it looks like you lost your sense of perspective, in a couple of ways. One, that's a common joke, and I've never seen it used hurtfully, it's meant to be a shared acknowledgement that you did something so wonderful the only way to acknowledge it is to downplay it; two, you are placing a lot of importance on a casual remark that you are interpreting as an insult; and three, that newsgroup is not alt.cuddle, and even if that remark was intended as an insult it's a not-unpredictable thing to happen there.

However, I see (reading the other comments) that everyone disagrees with me. I'll be careful not to joke around you, since my idea of a joke obviously isn't congruent to yours. This joke is in the same category as referring to a spouse as "the old ball and chain," and can be done with good will and humor or with resentment and passive aggressive negativity. If you are sure you know which one was intended here, then of course you are reacting properly.

Even then, I say just throw it away. Don't let it spoil your sense of accomplishment and triumph. (In fact, does the fact that you are so bothered by it mean anything to you?)

For what it's worth (and probably to you, not much)

[ororo.livejournal.com]

I've never heard anyone I know in a happy, healthy relationship refer to a partner as a "ball and chain."

[micheinnz.livejournal.com]

Speaking as the spouse of someone who's writing up their PhD thesis now, as well as working two jobs, let me just bitch-slap the idiot for you.

What they said was _way_ out of line. You were right, the comments _were_ hostile.

[micheinnz.livejournal.com]

Speaking as the spouse of someone who's writing up their PhD thesis now, as well as working two jobs, let me just bitch-slap the idiot for you.

What they said was _way_ out of line. You were right, the comments _were_ hostile.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm just an anonymous surfer but congrats! It's a huge thing to get a PhD and I've seen your sweating it out entries for a while now. I think in any of life's defining moments people will sometimes resort to that kind of low grade teasing... like the "ball and chain" comments around weddings or the "oooh you're the big boss now" comments around promotions.

Not everyone reacts well to the success of others, and that uncomfortableness can turn into that kind of "humor".

Since you're probably going to have a very illustrious career, it's good to figure out how to handle it now so that when you get other awards you're ready. *grin* I find the best response is "thank you" - it's confusingly polite.

[dedoc.livejournal.com]

That wretch, whoever it was that wrote it, is so far off the reservation that the Tribal Council has their face on milk cartons...

Tell 'em to Get Stuffed.

You done good, and let no one tell you different.

Grrrrr

[fernblatt.livejournal.com]

Yes, you have worked your buns off toward a degree, and it has been hard work, and it's worth every drop of sweat. The folks making the foolish comments can go stuff them, know several folks that have went through what your went through, many more that were lucky they were able to get their Masters and come out alive and still a productive member of society when all is said and done......

So there.

[liveavatar.livejournal.com]

Oh, dear. I'm a regular rassef reader (though I almost never post), so I've seen the entire exchange.

My thought on this is: I live in the college-sodden, degree-laden Bay Area, and I've heard the Piled Higher and Deeper joke frequently over, say, the past 20 years, chiefly from people who have a PhD. It's never seemed to be a putdown in my hearing. It's usually used as a bonding device. Kind of like Marines saying, "Yeah, I'm a jarhead."

And I've definitely heard "congratulations on your Piled Higher and Deeper" several times, used as a compliment. It's not even teasing. It's an in-joke.

Now that I've heard the joke so many times, it's a No-Longer-Funny in my book, but that's only out of boredom.

So for the first poster, I suspect his intentions were pure. (You don't quote him here, but I saw his post.) I think he was just trying to be in-jokey and chummy. To the extent you can in your immediate post-degree recovery, try to be gentle with him.

The second poster, though... yeah, with the "worthless piece of paper" thing he definitely went over the line. Especially with his detailed explanation of something you undoubtedly already knew. Just a wee bit condescending of him.

Anyway, that's the context in which I saw the exchange.

Meanwhile, congratulations on your doctorate!

[rivka.livejournal.com]

So for the first poster, I suspect his intentions were pure. (You don't quote him here, but I saw his post.) I think he was just trying to be in-jokey and chummy. To the extent you can in your immediate post-degree recovery, try to be gentle with him.

The second poster, though... yeah, with the "worthless piece of paper" thing he definitely went over the line. Especially with his detailed explanation of something you undoubtedly already knew. Just a wee bit condescending of him.

Anyway, that's the context in which I saw the exchange.

That seems about right, actually. I really was only mildly peeved with the first guy. I pointed out to him that it could be perceived as insulting and he immediately backed down from it, so all's well.

The "worthless" comment, sheesh.

[zencuppa.livejournal.com]

My husband is a professor of Geology, and my previous spouse was an "all but dissertation" (left to complete an MBA instead), one of my closest friends has PHD in public health and just finished her residency as a family physican. My father-in-law and sister-in-law are also PHDs and academics (English and Geography) *wry grin.* (I am NOT an academic, my career is as an outspoken business freelance writer and editor.) But part of my career I worked at college textbook company, working and talking with professors and students, daily ..

What does all this mean? I **know and respect** the hard work, per stubbornness and problem solving ability that it takes to complete a PHD. My husband was Graduate Student Advisor for two years, and also truly enjoys working students who are dedicated, eager to question their own and other's academic ideas, and pursue their career path diligently, be it an academic or non-academic. Based on your postings, he would have been estatic to have a graduate like you, finish her PHD :-)

Unfortunately, most people are quite unfamiliar with the world of advanced degrees and academia. It *is* insulated and has a tendency to make others feel insecure because they don't know anything about it. In other words, this person is probably speaking from a position of pure ignorance. If that person was attempting to make a particular point *within your field* they would be ignored, and that's the treatment they deserve now.

And I hate to say it, but you are going to be teased in that way again, so you might as well learn to "Let it roll." *resigned sigh* (so speaks a tenured Professor's wife).

You've done a tremendous thing, reward yourself for it verbally, emotionally and in what other ways satisfy you *big hug.*

BTW - What are your plans now? Maybe you've stated it in your journal and I missed it (which I probably did). Are you going to pursue a teaching position, do research, go out and practice? What's next??